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ASSAULTED IN YOUR HOME—NOW WHAT?
This
question came to me after seeing some news stories relating to this.
When some people are confronted with a burglar in their home the victim
sometimes says they were tied up and put in a closet or something of
that sort while the person or persons robbed the house. So this
generated a question in my head. If you were being robbed in your own
home and the burglar said he'd tie you up and wouldn't hurt you, should
you go along with this? Yes, I know common sense says not to, I mean
here's a stranger wanting to tie you up. And another thing is, if
you're tied you cannot defend yourself if they suddenly change their
minds. But sometimes the residents of the house just get tied up, put
in a closet, and that's it, the robbers leave after they have what they
came for. And what if by refusing to be tied triggers something in
the burglar and they get angry and use their weapon on you. But I
guess this question has a common sense answer and by me going into this
I'll probably end up answering my own question here. I'm guessing
even though the burglar doesn't intend to harm you you really can't
take that chance, so if you're confront with someone in your home you
gotta dish out the goods and stop him/them. But would this go against
being a pacifist warrior on some level? Meaning, you might bring
violence into a situation that might not have been violent. But my
guess is you should never submit to some one who plans to tie you up
and rob you. And I was curious if there are any "signals" or "give
aways" that might let you know if the person really doesn't mean to
harm you or if they're just tricking you. Thank you for your time and
I hope my questions made sense. Have a great day.
Generally
you have to have something that a burglar wants. If he is in your home
he is now a robber. In NYS a burglar who enters a dwelling at night
with people has crossed a serious line and is now simply by just
entering commiting a major felony. Most people who will enter an
occupied dwelling mean business and have a plan for the occupants. If
it is a home invasion then all bets are off. You and members of your
family are at high risk for death, usually after some form of torture.
If the bad guys are only after your treasure and only want to secure
you and family members while taking what they came for and you are able
to actually read their minds concerning not harming anyone then good
luck. I can't read minds and usually what a bad guy says he is not
going to do is just exactly what he will do. If you have to fight after
someone with a weapon and friends have entered your home you will need
a miracle to win. If you have family members present you will need a
biblical miracle to save you. The answer is not can you read a certain
sign whether or not you will be harmed after being tied up. The answer
is prevention. A good alarm system and a dedicated dog go far in your
favor for a home invasion. If you have access to firearms and really
know how to use them under extreme conditions that would help. Even in
the case of homes with alarms some home invaders have ignored them
and just kicked in the front and or back doors to enter and had the
home owner turn off the alarm or give the code word to the alarm
company at the threat of death. Treasure comes in many forms. It could
be that you have money that someone knows about. Daughters who some
psychos would like to know better. I have doors and windows which are
difficult to break and a tiny poodle which has ears like a bat and will
always give warning of anyone near my home. My tiny poodle will not
only alarm me but my big bad pit bull. I have no treasure but my well
armed girl friend. Are you gettin the picture? If somone got into my
place and wanted to tie me up I would resist as much as possible. I
don't have children to worry about. If you do then you should make a
burglar extremely unwelcome. Good luck, John Perkins
Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
I
think people who get into attackproof read a Bruce Lee book somewhere
that said "no way as way" and decided they never had to practice kata
(probably their too lazy anyway). Kata practice makes you able to
handle all different attacks if its done right. Thats why you'll never
see an attackproof school in your neighborhood.
05/15/03 at 09:22:46
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Anonymous
I
am very intrigued by what you have to say. You should stop by one of
the ATTACKPROOF classes and show everyone just how kata practice helps
enhance one's abilities in defending against various attacks.
05/15/03 at 15:32:32
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
I've
seen what attackproof looks like, its slow and soft like tai chi which
doesn't work either. power is always better. I've worked out with tai
chi people and their defense is like cotton candy. Their punches also.
05/15/03 at 16:47:46
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Humble Student
Just
because attack proof class "fights" are slow and appear soft does not
mean it is ineffective. We look soft because we stay soft to avoid
injury when someone is trying really hard to hurt us. Our punches &
kicks are not soft however, they are just slow, so not to hurt our
training partner. We go slow to learn what works and the correct way to
hit without hurting our training partner. As one progresses, one can go
faster. If you go faster before your ready, you get hurt because you
will not have learned to stay soft and avoid the attacks.
Attackproof
doesn't have katas. We do have drills. (balance, looseness, multi-angle
hitting, etc.) Some do the drills out of class, others don't. I am sure
that is true everywhere. If katas are so great, why doesn't Drivers
Education use it? Because, your reactions to ever changing situations
is more reliable than a rigid do this then do that system. No one ever
told me someone would stop in the middle of the highway, while everyone
else is doing 60+. No kata for that. I just had to use my wits. Oh, and
using only the breaks is not the answer.
05/15/03 at 18:17:35
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
Yeah,
but you can't be soft when you're going full speed! How can you block a
full speed punch in the face soft! You have to block it hard or become
hamburger.
05/15/03 at 20:54:19
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Hudson
"You have to block it hard or become hamburger."
I'm
surprised you can't think of any other way to avoid becoming hamburger
- like maybe moving and/or counterattacking ? Also, it doesn't seem
like a block needs to be that strong if it is done right.
05/15/03 at 22:24:13
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Ted Stal
I
have seen the Attack Proof guys working out in a park in Rockland
county last year. Apparently you have misinterpreted what you saw.
These guys practice slow but will punch you across a room or slam you
to the ground. I work out with personal professional fighting students
of the Gracies and found the strikes from the Attack Proof people to be
devastating. It may serve you well to drop by one of their classes and
try it for yourself. One of my Police buddies did and thought it was a
real eye opener. Good luck
05/16/03 at 01:12:29
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
Practice
slow and you fight slow. Block soft and you'll be soft. Real fights are
full speed, full power. If you have no techniques or kata you can only
fight sloppy with weak strikes that hit nothing. What are you gonna
do-make stuff up? Sorry, but that's how you have to train to be real.
05/16/03 at 07:57:12
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Major Al
First
of all I want to thank GTX for writing and starting off this forum with
a lively topic, we don't want this thing to become a form of mutual
admiration society, nobody learns anything that way. With that said I
think one of the things we need to understand with regard to “kata” is
that while its intention is well meaning, it is woefully inadequate for
“real fighting.” This is because kata and any other type of forms
within the martial arts are based upon a reality that does not exist in
real fighting! [This is what Bruce Lee discovered the hard way.]
Mind
you I'm not in total agreement with many things that Bruce Lee said
because I believe he had some wrong ideas about some things, but my
fighting experience and that of many high level black belt students,
military and law enforcement personnel that I've instructed has taught
me that this philosophy of "no way as the way" is true.
Like
I stated before, while I understand the intent of kata, kata assumes
you know what the attacker is going to do before hand, or that the
fight is going to go down the way you want it to, heck if you knew
that, there would be no fight. You would just crack the attacker across
the neck before he could get his stuff off in the first place.
I
agree with his assessment of Tai Chi, however Tai Chi fails in fights
not because the principles are wrong, but because they believe that
their “forms” along with their so-called mystical chi powers will work
during the utter chaos and mayhem of a real fight. This is the same
classical mistake being made in dojo's all over the country, and so it
fails for the same reasons I've mentioned above.
As for
blocking with hard strikes the only thing I can say is that anyone who
relies on hard strikes to block obviously has never had to deal with
some of the psycho street killers that I know. That may work in the
dojo, but not against street hardened thugs high on drugs and hell bent
on your destruction. When you learn to block solely with hard blocking
techniques, you're assuming that you're going to be stronger than any
would be attacker. My question is, are you willing to bet your life on
that assumption?
As for being “soft” while moving full
speed, a better word would be “relaxed.” When a sprinter sprints his
body is relaxed, if it is not there is no way he can achieve max
acceleration, even Boxers when they Box they are relaxed. It's very
simple the more relaxed you are the more responsive your muscles are
and the faster you can move. When you're able to move faster along with
greater muscle control you are able to strike with greater penetrating
or killing force.
Here's the deal if you're into doing
katas, I say more power to you, it's definitely a good workout, but
just like doing knuckle push-ups they have absolutely nothing to do
with real fighting.
05/16/03 at 12:42:31
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Theo
Hallo
everybody! Congratulations for the new website and for the forum! I
cannot think of a better way to help anybody who is interested in
self-defence and Attack Proof specially to learn.
I
started my research for a self-defence system after a street attack I
experienced one and a half year ago. I consider Attack Proof the best
thing that has happened to me during that research. I have watched a
lot of instructional tapes and read many books and I believe that the
Attack Proof book and videos and John Perkins' Ki Chuan Do are the
closest and best ways to train for the "real thing".
However,
I think that katas have their value in training. They teach you balance
and they put into muscle memory certain moves like blocks and strikes
and as Major Al said, it can be a good workout. Of course, in Attack
Proof there are many drills to help you develop balance as well as
sensitivity, body unity and looseness. I think any Martial Artist or
self defence practitioner would benefit a lot from these drills without
having to abandon his traditional training.
This, of
course, is my humble opinion. I have had very little martial arts
training in the past and no training in Attack Proof yet, but I am
planning to do a lot of the later as soon as I recover from a broken
leg (street attack, broken leg, what a year, eh?)
Thank you. Train hard and stay safe!
05/17/03 at 05:48:07
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fighting for real Henry Taylor
I
have read ATTACK PROOF and found it to be the most insightful book on
actual close combat around. Only if you are about to fight a slow drunk
or someone much weaker will fancy high kicks and magic punches from a
memorized kata work. In the real world of able bodied attackers speed
and surprise is the norm. Thanks for the book. And, by the way I looked
up the class schedule on the web site and there are 4 established
Attack Proof schools in the the New York area.
05/16/03 at 00:57:24
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Aggression Ladder Tony LoCasto
Recently
I read an article published by a major martial art magazine about the
different levels of aggression that you may encounter and how you
should respond. They used a ladder to illustrate the aggression levels.
To make things simple lets use three levels,
First level strong language.
Second level, invading your personal space. (Push or a poke)
Third level, the opponent has engaged you in a physical combat. No doubt that he or she means you physical harm.
My
question to you is should it be our responsibility to evaluate another
person's intensions when we feel threatened? Things escalate fast!
05/17/03 at 18:07:03
Re: Aggression Ladder
Hi Tony, I wouldn't -- I think this is what you were getting at too. My aggression level ladder might have two and a half rungs.
1. Loud aggressive threatening language -- I should probably be aware that this might be a threat.
1
1/2. Anything that even remotely looks like a push or poke that I have
the luck to be able to see, I would most probably attack them right
then.
2. They have touched me in any unwelcomed manner
that could possably have caused me harm - they will be attacked by me.
However if they are armed or if I feel that I would be defeated for
another reason, escape would be a good tactic to follow.
05/19/03 at 02:29:11
Re: Aggression Ladder Matt Kovsky
My
ladder would have only one rung. If ANYTHING appears threatening, I'm
out of there. You never know who you're dealing with. I was verbally
and physically assaulted once out of nowhere by a punk half my size for
no reason. I was about to crack his head open when a friend of mine
interceded who knew the kid's brother and cooled him out. I said to my
friend "what did you do that for?", and he told me that he heard that
the punk had just acquired a pistol and was showing it off to other
people saying he couldn't wait to try it out on someone.
Now
if I had no place to run or had someone to defend and they're verbally
abusive to the point where i fear for my physical (not my vanity's)
safety within my PCZ (personal comfort zone or as far as you can
reach), I attack the attacker and that's it.
05/19/03 at 09:21:03
Re: Aggression Ladder Andre' Winter
My
opinion is to sense a knowing when not to be somewhere , to not be near
the ladder to climb . Of course we also know that this may not always
be the case but something to keep in mind. Lets say we are in a a bar ,
we know the guy has a gun , befriend him, buy him a drink, excuse
yourself to the bathroom, and leave the joint. "Gifts" with a healthy
dose of humility go a long way in the Art of War .
05/19/03 at 22:03:47
Re: Aggression Ladder Major Al
Regarding
the aggression ladder I saw this same article in “Black Belt” magazine.
The only thing I can say is that while it is logical to have some form
of “Aggression Ladder” in your mind, real world situations have too
much ambiguity and there are too many steps in this concept for the
brain to process in the split second you have to be reactive and move
like the wind. The point is you just don't know what's in another
person's head. The guy who seems nice to you may turn out to be a
serial murder and rapist ala “John Wayne Gacie” or “Ted Bundy.”
We
teach a similar concept known as the “Sphere of Influence.” The first
level is your awareness, which should always be up but not heightened
to a level where you become paranoid. Awareness is based upon your
intuition and your visual and perceptual skills, in other words if you
think something is wrong, it probably is. The next level or layer is
the actual sphere, which extends from the center of your body to the
striking limit of your hands and feet. I say striking limit because the
extension you have for striking is slightly less that the maximum
extension of your limbs, this ensures you are always able to strike
with power.
But here's the big difference in our
concept, if someone “suddenly enters” your sphere or causes you to feel
threatened under any circumstances, you are free to take their head
off. While this sounds crude it's the only logical response given the
often ambiguous and suddenness of the type of situation people find
themselves in when face with an attacker hell bent on their destruction.
05/22/03 at 14:23:22
Re: Aggression Ladder wmpm
Hello all -'specially the NYC 14th street crew. I'm Suffering from a bit of insommnia and I thought I'd check out the site.
Regarding
the aggression ladder, I feel that potential danger should never be
thought of in "levels". The situation's either harmless, potentially
spotty, or barrelling strait down at you. There are guys out there who
are REALLY good at the sucker punch thing, but even then it is still
very possible to get that "spider sense" from them and know enough to
walk away or be ready when the sucker punch does indeed come. I realize
how debatable this is, but I KNOW from experience that Ki Chuan Do's
sensitivity training upgrades the natural ability to tell me which to
choose; fight or flight.
To touch off on what Andre said, a good
bit of humor in a bad situation can go a helluva long way. If your
relaxed enough to crack a stupid joke, your relaxed enough to bounce a
nice palm to the chin. You can literally win a mental battle simply by
being calm, respectful, and apparently ready for the "bad guy". He'll
walk off, either quietly or muttering, either truly scared at the
disturbing display of confidence, or simply feeling your not worth the
trouble. Best of all, this can be perceived by you, and if your walking
home with that special lady, you've just increased your chances of
getting lucky fella!
And if he doesn't walk away...well, like I said, you'll be relaxed enough for that nice palm strike to the chin.
06/02/03 at 04:07:22
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Some thoughts from Sun Tzu Tony LoCasto
Sun
Tzu was the Chinese tactician and military adviser to the Chou
emperors, 500 B.C. I believe his words still apply to today's modern
martial arts.
All warfare is based on deception. When
able to attack, we must seem unable: when using our forces, we must
seem inactive; when we are near, we must have the enemy believe we are
far away; when far away we must make him believe we are near. Hold out
the bait; entice the enemy. Feign disorder and crush him. Sun Tzu
I am interested in how you intrepid of Sun Tzu's words and do you still believe his words ring true today?
05/19/03 at 22:51:07
Re: Some thoughts from Sun Tzu Major Al
Sun
Tzu, from a philosophical standpoint was a genius when it came to
understanding the true nature of warfare and his timeless concepts are
every bit as applicable today as they were over 2,000 years ago. His
writings are required reading at every Field Grade Officer and General
Staff level military school around the world. Combat is fluid, ever
changing and dynamic not rigid or static, it is chaotic and full of
surprises which requires that nothing be taken for granted of left to
chance, something Sun Tzu clearly understood. Unfortunately to many
people both in the military and the martial arts have forgotten his
sage advice and teachings and have opted to listen to the pied pipers
of folly and destruction. The best versions of this ancient translation
is “The Art of War,” by Sun Tzu, Ralph D. Sawyer and “The Art of War,”
by Samuel B. Griffith.
05/22/03 at 14:49:20
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Sport Specific Strength Training ed
I've
lifted weights for some time now but since begining my training with Ki
Chuan Do have found my body tight and fighting itself. I was much more
flexible when I just played b-ball. I was thinking of purchasing one of
those "total gym 1000's" that you see Chuck Norris pushing in those
infomercials. It seems to yield supple "useful" muscle strength over a
greater range of motion. I know that it uses the same principals as
"Pilates" which is proven to work. I've seen them on Ebay for a song.
Is there anyone who has used one or can give me some input as what to
do to increase my strength, flexibility and range of motion. I love
lifting but need something that doesn't bind me up. ed
05/21/03 at 16:04:52
Re: Sport Specific Strength Training John Perkins
I
have used the total gym myself and have found it to be a good adjunct
to most physical training. If you use weight training it may slow you
up temporarily while learning KCD but if you stretch well before and
after weight training you should be fine. Remember although we do not
rely on strength there may come a time when you may not have any other
opening and sometimes a good powerful push can help. I do recommend,
however, that if you are interested in developing maximum fighting
strength that you use the dynamic contraction methods that I teach.
That is the method I use for increasing ligament and tendon strength
and why I can manipulate many of the weight lifters at the gym a few of
which bench 500 pounds. If you need more info contact me at
attack@attackproof.com Good luck, JP
05/22/03 at 07:42:09
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Questions and answers about KCD solo drills... Matt Kovsky
Hi Matt,
Been trying out some of the drills in AP last one week. I have tried
Anywhere Striking, Hula, Turning, Solo Contact Flow, Swimming, Body Writing, Polishing the Sphere and Washing the Body.
Here are some of questions:
1. Sometimes my hands get "entangled" when I strike too fast when
practicing Anywhere Strikes. Is this normal?
I
assume you're doing the advanced Anywhere drill with multi-strikes. I
haven't heard of entanglement being a problem before, but here's how to
prevent it. As emphasized in Tai chi, you want to clearly separate the
Yin from the Yang. In English, separate your upward from downward
strikes, your lefts from your rights, strikes moving inwards and
strikes moving outwards, etc. Keep transferring your weight from leg to
leg as you strike, like a tennis player changing from a backhand to a
forehand shot, or a right handed batter suddenly switch-hitting to
lefty and back again. Also, develop your sensitivity (read the
sensitivity and contact flow chapters) so that you pocket and yield
your body and limbs out of the way of each other as your arms snake
around so they don't entangle.
2. Is Turning drill similar to Psycho Chimp drill? Same objectives, right?
Turning
drill is just a very simplified exercise to get you to transfer your
weight completely from leg to leg as your upper body and arms loosely
turn and swing from the momentum. The Psycho-chimp requires (as in
entanglement question above) Sensitivity so you don't hit yourself at
high speed while you maintain weight transfer and looseness at high
speed like a mongoose.
3. How come my legs get so tired after practicing Body Writing, Polishing
the Sphere and Washing the Body? It's as if I have run a marathon race.
As
we intended, you are using important balance and stabilization muscles
that are vital for fighting but are rarely if ever trained properly.
The fatigue is a good thing.
> If i have to keep my hands "loose" then I must use my hips & legs or lower
> body, right? Am I moving too fast?
Hard
to know how fast you're moving; just remember that all power comes from
the legs and your connection to the ground and weight transfers. Think
of your legs as being the handle of a whip: the motion becomes
amplified and accelerated as the power wave flows to the the tip of the
whip (your hands). This is where the power of your strikes come from
(read Dropping chapter).
> 4. How long do you recommend I practice all these drills daily, bearing in
> mind I have very limited time or sometimes too tired from work.
Frequency is very important, but you only have to do each exercise for less than 5 minutes each.
More than that can damage tendons.
> 5. Will I see any positive effects on my next Karate sparring?
Because
most karate sparring is sportive and has definite rules of engagement,
it doesn't allow true "play" (like when you were a little kid
play-fighting and wrestling with friends) so it is questionable how
many attributes can be brought to bear. Karate in general lacks true
infighting development, where most real combat takes place. Any good
wrestler will demolish most blackbelts: they'll take a shot and then
crush you and pop your arms out of their sockets (As Gene Labelle did
to Bruce Lee). You need to find like-minded and trustworthy training
partners where anything goes (other than ripping out throats and
drawing blood!) so you can freely apply all Ki Chuan Do principles.
> 6. What is a balance board? Where can I buy one?
Save
your money! Go to a Home Depot and get a 4 foot long 2x4. Roll up some
newspaper into 2 balls and duct tape them to both ends of one side of a
board. All you're trying to do is make an unstable surface to stand on,
like a Canadian logroller. The bigger the wads of paper, the more
unstable the board is when your try to balance on it.
Great questions and good luck with your training!
06/08/03 at 08:53:49
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The Pre-emptive strike John Perkins
There
are many out there who have learned serious CQB (close quarters battle)
techniques. Along with the proper physical training you must learn the
right mind set for fighting. I have over the years come across many
instructors classes, videos, books etc. which deal with the pre-emptive
strike. This a Military concept which has been used for centuries.
Basically it is the method used by the German army in WW2. You attack
before the enemy does. In a street confrontation you would apply this
concept a bit differently. If you read any of Prof. Bradley J.
Steiner's works you will come across his ATTACK the ATTACKER concept.
Basically, if you are approached by someone who you perceive is about
to harm you and you have no other choice you get off your stuff
immediately. There is no time to block an attack so If you are mentally
prepared you will explode instantly into your opponent with well aimed
strikes to the most accessible and vulnerable parts of his anatomy
giving him no time to react to you. You have actually taken the
initiative and caused him to have to play catch up. There are
circulating letters about mysterious fighting ability which uses all
sorts of terminology designed to sell you seminars and tapes using this
concept. They fail to tell you many of the complications which could
cause you to get killed in the wrong circumstances. Many of these
writer/teachers have served in the military so it would lend undue
credence to their pontifications. Remember most military members
including many spec. ops. never had a chance to fight hand to hand. If
they did it would usually be considered a failure on their part to use
the many weapons and options at hand. You must look into the background
of the person teaching and make a critical assesment about them based
on what they can actually can do. Read KILL OR GET KILLED or go to the
contacts page and contact Prof. Steiner. You could also read
ATTACKPROOF or attend the upcomming seminar which will be given by
Major Ridenhour in New Jersey (SEE EVENTS PAGE) this month. Don't be
fooled by people disguising the pre-emptive strike methods as some
secret scientific cool stuff. They could call it anything like focal
point fighting, scientific sucker punches, whack em first. Most of
these guys pander to the wannabes of the world. Yes you can learn some
deadly techniques from some very qualified teachers. These will be
taught in the best light that they can show it through to MAKE it work.
Remember the Guided Chaos principles are used to work against even the
attacks from the military CQB trained men. If you need proof as a
student or an instructor of CQB or any martial art contact me at one or
my classes or make an appointment to see me in person. You can reach me
at attack@attackproof.com. I can also give you the contact info. for
some real tried and true super fighting CQB instructors who have not
trained with me and are virtual buzz saws. Good luck, John Perkins
06/13/03 at 07:55:08
Re: The Pre-emptive strike Inquiring Mind
I
am interested in learning some style of martial arts. I took Kenpo for
a little over a year when I was younger but did not feel like I was
benefiting. I am presently trying to find a school to attend. I do not
live in NY and it doesn't look like you have any schools outside of NY.
My question is what is a good way to choose a school and/or Instructor.
What are some of the questions I should be asking them and how do I
know if they are being honest? I see a lot of instructors say the same
thing about their style that they teach realistic self defense
techniques but no instructor would be honest or should I say stupid
enough to say that their style is useless in an actual street brawl. If
you have some experience in the martial arts then you can wade through
most b_ _ _ s_ _ _ _ but if not you may not know what to actually look
for in an instructor.
I would appreciate any suggestions that you may have.
06/13/03 at 15:09:08
Re: The Pre-emptive strike John Perkins
To
answer the question of Mr./Ms. Inquiring mind. I will go out on a limb
here and offer anyone who wants to know if a particular instructor is a
serious and qualified fighting instructor this: If you can send me a
name and contact information of a teacher I will personally try to
interview them to see what their philosophy is about real combat and
get some direct information on their background. If you are a beginner
or long time practitioner of martial arts you may not be able to
discern what it takes to be a true combat master. I could post some
guidelines but after years of experience I have found that it is too
easy to fake people out. Some of the most gullible are the martial
artists who have spent years under the hypnosis of some "masters".
Thank you, John Perkins
06/14/03 at 07:21:02
Re: The Pre-emptive strike
I'll
second John's response to Inquiring Mind. I have seen countless books
and websites that sound great -- at times just like us in fact -- and
then worked out with the very people touting they can do the stuff that
works. Almost all of them can't. Good luck in your search and with
Master Perkins helping you find a teacher you may get lucky.
06/17/03 at 18:15:17
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KICK BUT AMERICA ! John Perkins
Recently,
I was having a discussion with one of my professional shoot fighters.
He has fought dozens of UFC style fights and has won most by knockout.
He looked over our website and said that it was too intelectual and
lacked PUNCH. He stated that we should emphasize the fact that I and
some of our instructors have real world experience. He stated that
myself having been in over 100 bloodbaths should be emphasized. He
stated that we should be vigorously knocking on the doors of our
military and police to teach them the CQB methodology of KCD. He stated
that America is laughed at by other countries as far as hand to hand
combat is concerned. They see us as weak. Question: Should Attack Proof
Inc. go out there and give a psychological body slam to our people.
Wake them up to the fact that the U.S.A. does not have the best
fightining for close combat and that we should go out there and educate
our people about the most devastating fightind system on earth? Should
we uncover the bullcrap out there that poses as real fighting? Give me
some feedback folks. Thanks, a once patient master
06/14/03 at 06:54:45
Re: KICK BUT AMERICA ! Dave Bell
You know me, John: I'd fully support such an endeavour, especially regarding training military and law-enforcement personnel.
But
to be honest, I don't think the majority of the American public cares
for self-defense, close-combat, etc. We are a complacent society,
driven, it seems nowadays, by fast food, the Internet, and easy living,
but I'd assume it's this way for most industrialized/non-third world
countries (France, Germany, England, etc). It takes big wakeup calls to
really make people realize and understand that someday, it's their very
lives that may be at stake, or the lives of loved ones. And the image
of the American people as weak is further driven along by the rising
unathletic/obesity rate in the USA, now spreading rapidly amongst
children in their early years, in my honest opinion.
Dave.
06/14/03 at 11:50:12
Re: KICK BUT AMERICA ! Dave Bell
I
guess my main point boils down to this quote by George Orwell: "People
sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand
ready to do violence on their behalf."
06/14/03 at 11:52:17
Re: KICK BUT AMERICA ! Major Al
Man
I've got to get back in the loop here. Anyway, I can fully attest to
what John's friend said that most of the rest of the world find us
“soft” and weak especially with regard to self-defense training and
fighting.
While we kid ourselves with “Bull jitsu” and
other forms of fantasy fighting, our allies as well as our enemies are
laughing at us. Yes laughing! Our obsession with cool looking
techniques and all this high speed gear that serves as more of a
hindrance to our mobility than protects us, has become the stuff of
much late night camp fire satire amongst our allies and enemies alike.
I
had the opportunity to see the al Qaeda training manual and I can tell
you that there is absolutely no BS in their training. Their training is
well thought out, well organized and highly effective. There are no
corny techniques and impossible wristlocks or throws. Everything they
teach is an assassination technique and all of their strikes focus on
the neck and above, in other words all they do is headhunt. The irony
is, is that it all comes from stuff found in many of the older military
fighting manuals that use to be the standard within the US armed
forces. There is nothing original about anything they do. The
difference is they know what's real and what's crap and don't waste
their time with the crap.
As for building up the art
one of the reasons why I personally believe it is difficult for us to
attract more students, (besides properly marketing the art) is that
this stuff “really scares” people. This art truly cuts to the core of
who people are, because you can't fake it, and all of your trophies,
certificates and sashes mean nothing if you can't deliver the goods.
When
I was recalled to active duty I ran numerous training courses and
seminars for free for any Marine, Sailor or Soldier who wanted to
train. While these classes began to become popular I would have to say
that for every student I had there were at least two to three others
who had tried it out, recognized its value, but decided not to continue
training for various reasons.
I would have guys come up
to me all of the time, mostly officers, expressing the desire to get
involved in some form of training with me, but they always seemed to
have an excuse for not doing so. Much of this had to do with their egos
especially amongst the officers.
These officers just
couldn't accept that many of the Sergeants and Corporals who had
trained with me in the principles of Ki Chuan Do, if they so desired
could seriously ruin their day. So instead of humbling themselves so
that they could learn something that was real and that could possibly
save their lives, they chose to place their heads in the sand. It's sad
but true…
I also agree that we need to develop a more
aggressive marketing strategy, which emphasizes the combative aspects
of the art. It's simple, those who want the real thing will come once
they know it's out their and available for the taking, those who do not
will continue to kid themselves by placing their heads in the sand.
As
for changing the content of the website I agree with Mike that you can
have a balance with the intellectual side as well as the combative
side, however, we must do so while emphasizing the combative nature of
the art of Ki Chuan Do.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxx
GUNPLAY John Perkins
I
am not sure that most of my students know that one of my most developed
area of skill is in the use of firearms, particularly handguns. Some of
my work has been published in various shooting magazines. I state this
as a set up for this question/statement. For many years I have taught
hundreds of people how to shoot. Most do very well once the handgun is
in hand. The big problem lies in the fact that most shooters don't know
how to get to their sidearm during a sudden attack. This has been
proven to them countless times. Many handgun carriers state to me that
they sill "read" a situation beforehand and have their stuff ready. ARE
SHOOTERS ABLE TO PERCEIVE THE FUTURE? I know that they mean that they
will spot trouble before it starts. This I hope is true. Even after I
prove to them that they will be at the mercy of the serious attacker
some will ignore what I show them. Can anyone out there shed some light
on this subject of ignoring the obvious? All help would be appreciated.
Maybe my head is in the clouds. Thanx the semi-humble one
06/16/03 at 05:54:07
Re: GUNPLAY Kevin
Since
I have been training with you I have come to truly realize and
appreciate some of my strong points, weak points, and limitations. By
accepting those facts it allows me to strive to improve in all of those
areas. Especially my limitations (i.e physical). As the old saying goes
"you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him/her (politically
correct) drink it.
So I say to you John that "to thy
own self be true". You have a gift that you have generously decided to
share with the world. So anyone that is fortunate enough to be exposed
to your teachings but refuse to accept it then you fulfilled your role
and don't be bothered or spend too much time in trying to figure out
the mind of megalomaniacs.
I always figured that the world was made up of 4 types of people:
1. Those that can listen to advice and examine the information and can honestly compare it to themselves (self evaluation
2. Those that listen but are a little hard headed so they have to experience it for themselves and eventually learn
3. Those that listen but never learn (they always feel they know better)
4. Those that never listen
These
4 areas can be used to describe people in a worldwide of areas.
Unfortunately, when you are dealing in areas of life and death, you may
not get another chance if you fall into category 2,3, and 4.
Xxxxxxxxxxx
OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... carl
I
recently had a great opportunity to flow hands w/ a tai-chi master down
in chinatown NYC. It was great because not only did he show me a
fantastic level of skill, but I also learned later by his lecture to
his class (which was free for me) and by reading his website that his
300 year old art had esentially the same core beliefs that our school
has, ie sensitivity, balance, chaos observation, the question of
neccessary speed, and the limitation of forms.
He said one thing
that, at the time, I agreed with, but much later I felt was wrong. By
his observation of our slow "match", he said that our art is mainly an
aggressive, offensive art. Granted, there are many of us that would
easily agree with that as well given our priorities of mental awareness
and and our methods of "engagement prone" training, but I have
experiences to dispel that notion. One that happened recently comes to
mind.
About a month ago, I had been walking in the Village NYC
very late at night, just after having fun with a few friends, so I was
in a good mood. I walked past a man, and suddenly felt him move behind
me. I turned around and somehow found myself easily blocking an
overhand hook punch, grabbing his wrist, and pulling him off balance.
In less then a second, I was able to register all the information I
needed, which, was that I didn't even need to hit him. He was bigger
then me, but he was completely drugged up and off balance. I could've
pounded on him like Roseanne Barr jumping on a Twinkie. He was so
drugged up in fact, that he even began crying and praying as I put my
hand on his chest and pushed him backwards a few feet. He started
pleading with me, and I told him in the most vulgar way possible to
turn around and walk away before I beat the crack out of him.
The
bottom line? I physically blocked and controlled a sucker punch without
so much as having a defensive posture, I controlled the attaker, and in
a tiny moment decided he wasn't even a threat, thus my ordering him to
escape.
If THAT sounds like the workings of an aggresive,
offensively oriented "style", then paint a mustache on my face and call
me Hitler!
06/18/03 at 00:03:56
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM....
Many
times when bouncing I have had big opportunities to kick the sh*t out
of people who attacked me while I was asking them to leave. Granted
unlike your instance I saw all of them coming. They too were so easily
subdued and no need for further attack or violence was necessary. You
could feel them submit right away. Our level of skill due to the way
John teaches the sensitivity training makes us almost have a sixth
sense. After contact begins or sometimes even before they can perceive
– even when flying high – that the animal they face can destroy them
and they cower. So nice of you not to bounce his head off of the
concrete Carl.
06/18/03 at 00:43:52
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... Kevin
Dave,
Have
you had the opportunity to practice contact flow or push hands with
those two masters and if so what was your assessment of their style
versus KCD?
Carl,
You proved the example of what
John always says about giving you the Louisivlle Slugger in case you
need it. Also the fact that you have developed the mental awareness to
make an immediate threat assessment that determined that your attacker
was no longer a threat. I commend you on your mercy. However, I'm sure
that in the split second that you determined that the aggressor was no
longer a threat if he had reversed himself and decised he was going to
challenge you then you would have solved his problem for him (at least
his problem with attacking strangers for no reason). So the compassion
that you displayed toward him really has no bearing on the
agressiveness of KCD. That was the decision that you made. Another
student might have decided to teach him a lesson or who knows he might
have caught you on a good night. It's possible that if he tried that
when you were really having a bad day or week you might have displayed
more aggression.
06/18/03 at 14:41:31
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... JP
Good
work Carl. To set the record straight KCD is defensive and can be
extremely offensive. During my career as a Police Officer I had many
occasions to use the yang aspects of the art. This was when there were
multiple assailants. These incidents usually happened in the most
chaotic conditions. Many people will attempt to show their superiority
by stating that KCD is too aggressive. My answer to that is this. When
an attack happens against yourself or a loved one or your radio car
partner or your soldier buddy should you stand in a ready stance and
wait for the enemy to create the stage for the impending combat?
Sometimes you must set the tone instantly. Many times this has allowed
me to use less force because I was in more control than if I had to
play catch up. There were many times that I did not have to shoot some
assailants because I pre-empted the action. Don't be confused by
someone trying to define KCD. I know many friends who are highly
evolved in Tai Chi Chuan. Some are monks while others are grand
masters. None of them are Cops or Soldiers. None of them judge KCD
negatively. I am sure that the gentleman who you rolled hands with did
not mean to use the word aggressive negatively. I am proud of the way
you handled the street thug and I know that you have had many rough
experiences working as a night club security specialist. Good luck, JP
06/18/03 at 18:25:30
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? Carl
Thanks
for the feedback guys. I reread what I had written and wondered if it
had sounded a bit boastful. I apologize if it seemed this way, and let
me assure all those who read it that this is not my intention. For the
record, I now sort of wonder if letting that guy walk away was such a
good idea; I may have just sent him looking for an easier target to get
"fix money".
To be quite honest, I actually like to tell of
these experiences because I want to convince other students, especially
the beginners, that they are not wasting their time from all the
training that other martial artist would probably call "useless".
Sometimes it's hard to simply believe in a training methodology if you
are completely unsure of it's usefulness, AND if it's not the norm.
Every now and then I can look in a classmate's eyes and see they have a
little doubt, which I can understand. So, while doing my best not to
seem like a chest-beater, I like to tell them exactly why I KNOW this
stuff works.
For Dave and all others interested, the guy I rolled hands with is named Sam Chin, and his website is http://www.iliqchuan.org/
If
anything, you can read the history and feel a warm fuzzy knowing our
mantras aren't insane, but something ingeniously conceived long before
our time.
06/19/03 at 00:16:30
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... JP
Remember
folks that many of the concepts of KCD are rooted in my training in
combat tai chi. I have trained since summer 1971 with Doc Miller who
introduced me to Grand Master Waysun Liao in Chicago. His text on The
TAI CHI CLASSICS is a mainstay of many KCD concepts. If anyone wants to
visit Grand Master Liao we are planning to hold a large seminar this
October in Chicago at the Degerberg Academy with the aid of Doc Miller
who is a Tai Chi master and who keeps me on my toes in this regard. I
also roll hands with a few other Tai Chi Chuan masters just to keep
Kosher. There is nothing new under the sun. It is the blending of
cultures of combat along with serious life experience of myself and
many of our students and teachers that brings about KCD. Many Tai Chi
purists don'thave a clue about KCD. If you only roll hands on their
terms they and you will not get the intrinsic flow and dynamics of KCD
when applied realistically. Again there is nothing new under the sun
but there are many shadows out there to penetrate. Good hunting. JP
06/19/03 at 04:37:53
XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Ground fighting Tony LoCasto
This
is an opening statement I read in a popular martial arts publication
this month. I am interested in your opinions on ground fighting. I was
very impressed with the teaching of groundwork at a resent seminar at
the Bellerose location with Master Perkins and his instructors.
The
ground is the last place you want to be during a real fight. If you end
up down there, it usually indicates that your stand-up battle plan had
a catastrophic failure.
Re: Ground fighting JP
If
you want to see a good example of why it is not a good idea to go to
the ground in a real street fight just get the video Menace 2 Society.
It is a great movie depicting gang life in L.A. you will notice that
once a person is taken to the ground he will be stomped to mush in
seconds. This begs the question, "how do I not go to the ground in a
fight?". The answer is a bit complicated. First of all you must treat
all street altercations as potential assasination attempts. If you are
merely dealing with a push-shove situation use your head and leave.
Watch behind you while you make your exit. When I was in high school it
was in vogue to have some hoods surround you while one faced you and
made like he was going to fight you man to man. The usual move,
however, was to dive at your ankles and lift your feet off the ground
hoping to crack your head on same. The group around you would
immediately proceed to kick, punch and do full body slams onto you. The
best defense that I found was as soon as I realized that a party was
about to begin I would instantly begin drop stepping forward directly
into my antagonist while simultaneously chopping downward onto the side
of his neck and kneeing low into his chest or face, whichever presented
itself first as he dove for my ankles. At almost the same instant I
would launch into what we refer to as the Mexican Hat Dance.(see ATTACK
PROOF for directions) If for some reason I happened to land on the
ground all hell would break loose. Using the methods of Native American
ground fighting I would open up some space for myself to escape or put
my knife or other weapon into action if need be. If you go to the
ground with someone in the street you don't have to follow any rules. A
good hard poke in the eye, a bite to the neck or any fleshy area could
help you quickly. If it is a life and death fight poke through the eye
into the brain. This is extremely effective against a grappling attack.
Most of my personal experience has been in the streets, hallways of
tenement houses, living rooms, etc. and usually weapons and multiple
assailants were the norm. I was at a distinct disadvantage to
civilians. It was incumbent on me as a police officer to keep the level
of my attack limited as far as possible. As a civilian in New York
State you are obliged to retreat, if possible, but I have found that
juries will give a civilian under attack by multiple or armed
assailants more leeway in their own defense. This may have a lot to do
with our political climate today. Remember to train hard so that you
will have more control in your own and your loved ones' defense. Luck JP
XxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts gavin sicks
I
should point out that the great benefit of ki chuan do and john
perkins, is that IF you follow johns advice to the "T." You will, like
many other high ranking and extremely skilled instructors of this
system, be able to (without any street experience) handle yourself as
if youv been fighting in the streets for a life time. An experience is
simply that. to improve you need a vivid memory and the accurate
ability to analyze, train and discover. Johns intelligence is special
to say the least. with less street experience than some of his students
he has trained them how to do better and proved it, 1000 times over!
YOU DONT HAVE TO GO THROUGH WHAT JOHN WENT THROUGH TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL
WITH IT. I hold this to no-other art ive ever seen.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts Joe Martarano
I belive all three is a good source of information. What we do with it, it's up to the seeker.
The
person who has fought in the ring has mental strength. The never give
up attitude. The competive spirit. An I can attitude. A good work ethic.
The
instructor with 30 years of martial arts experience, teaches us the way
of the warrior. The martial artist trains both body & sprint. The
martial artists only use force as a last resort. He is a man of peace
with the ability to rage war when he needs to.
The
person who has survived a good number of serious, violent street fights
brings reality of combat to training. It gives us the ability to
determine what will and not work.
The best source of
information for close combat, is the person who combines the best from
all three, and the ability to teach others what they have learned.
I have found that person in John Perkins, I am thankful for that.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts michaelcoplon
I don't know if I can come up with anything that you haven't thouigh of already, but I'll give it a shot.
First
my honest opinion. I am going to assume that there is no other
information available to me other than there are three different
instructors. One has 30 years of classical trainning. Another has some
real experience surving violent street encounters. The third is a good
sports fighter. I can only choose one to help me prepare for self
defense, to fight for my life in situations that I cannot simply avoid
by being nice or being assertive or some other means. These unsought,
unwanted encounters could be against multiple attackers with weapons.
Without
other information I would have to choose the teacher with the relevant
real world experience. The other two might be great teachers, but what
they teach could be all wrong. If they do not know how to convert their
sport fighting or classical training into self defense training then
what I learn from them could leave me in worse shape than if I had no
trainning. And from the information given, there is no indication that
they can convert what they teach into self defense. Even if the
instructor with the real world experience turns out to be a poor
teacher, at least he has some idea what to teach.
Now
if I already knew a lot about fighting for my life, from first hand
experience, I would try to find all of the best classical teachers and
get raw material from them to make myself even better. I would have the
knowledge to be able to pick and alter classical training to suit my
needs. At one time many people actually fought for real, so they were
able to easily gain things from quality classical training. Now most of
us will not have to fight for our lives so we lack the real expeience
that kind of cuts though all of the BS and fanatsies.
Some
people substitute sport fightinmg experience for fighting for your
life, but it doesn't take much thinking to realize that even Ultimate
Fighting is very different than a real encounter. On the other hand,
there is no question that sportfighting can help a person to learn to
channel their fear into action even if it is the wrong type of action.
It seems to me that sport fighting contests probably started out as
training methods for warriors. What happened is they evolved into big
money spectator sports where winning within the rules is the only goal.
Once this Occurred these contest lost most of their value as trainning
methods for self defense.
I will try to write more later and play Devil's Advocate
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial ar Virgil
Here's my two cents:
As a direct answer to the question, it takes 3 things:
1. An analytical mind with a fair amount of combat intelligence.
2. Enough combat trial and error, experience, experimentation to feed that mind.
3. The ability to put it all together in some form of training methodology so that someone else can benefit.
Virgil
(hello to everyone from Nyack Fighting Arts)
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts John Perkins
Hi
Virgil, glad to hear from you. For the information of anyone out there
Virgil is the Master instructor for the Nyack Fighting Arts. He teaches
in a very realistic manner and if you are looking for a superb stick,
blade, and empty hand master it's Virgil. You can reach him at his web
site www.NyackFightingArts.com
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts michaelcoplon
Again an honest answer. I am not yet ready to play Devils Advocate.
A
good anology for the problems of tradional trainning can be seen in the
American Civil War. Many of the leaders on both sides had studied and
attempted to use the strategies and tactics of Napolean. The new
weapons changed everything. Grant who did not do well at West Point
(21st out of 39) did not have much invested in the old approaches. He
did better than the others at learning from experience what would work.
You all know what happened next. I imagine that military history is
full of examples of over schooled leaders making big mistakes and
leaders who learned from experience doing well.
But an
even more accurate anology for many but not all tradionalist would be
taking the most recent top of the class at West Point and immeadiately
making her/him the head of the armed forces. For a sport fighting
anology you could take someone who has done well at war games but
hasn't been in battle and put them in charge. It sounds absurd and
practically no one would take these inexperienced warriors and make
them the head of the Armed forces. However traditionalist and
sportfighters are sought out by even the police and army for advice on
empty hand fighting. Is this because people with significant self
defense experience are rare? Are there other reasons for this?
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts Michael Coplon
Time for a little devils advocate
The
person with 30 years of martial arts experience is head and shoulders
over the rest. The street fighter may be good, but it could all be
genetics and natural attributes. Also we have no idea how much skill
the people who he fought with possesed. Probably not that much since
anyone with formal training would not get into street fights. Another
important consideratio is that martail arts are like any other science.
No matter how smart you are yo have to go to school to learn it. Even
Albert Einstein couldn't just teach himself, he went to school and
study for many years before he could make advancements in the physics.
As
far as sport fighting goes, it just isn't as sophisticated as Karate,
Judo, Ju Jitsu or Tai Chi Chuan. Look who one all of those Ultimate
fights against bigger stonger opponents, Royce Gracie and he had years
and years of classical trainning.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts ed
At
the risk of being cliche' something that has been reinforced to me
through my short experience in Ki Chaun Do is just what I learned from
"Mr.Miagai" in "The Karate Kid." Your mind is your greatest weapon and
the best way to avoid being in hit is to not be there when the punch is
thrown. If a martial art assists you in gaining inner peace and
humility enough that you can sense and walk away, while giving you
practical real world training, then it's done it's job. That person who
has survived many violent encounters might just as well have walked
away from whatever situation arose. Would that not have been better? It
is always better to have and not need than to need and not have. Ki
Chaun Do delivers both.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts Andre'
All of them. None of them.
Development
Movement
is a manifestation of thought. If we move forcefully and rigidly then
this is how our mind is. If we move with grace and yeild if necessary
-- and hit with respect, then this is how our mind is. If we are trying
to defeat our training partners then this is how our mind is -- not
focused on our own development. If these things are true that our mind
makes us move as we do then our body reveals the way our mind works.To
fight better is not always to develop as we do the aspects of
looseness, balance, sensitivity, and power in the body, but also in the
mind. No great warrior was only a great fighter they were known for
their way.
Re: Development Hudson
Great
post Dave ! Re: Developing the mind - I recently finished a book called
"The Mental Edge" which discusses the value of mental training for
athletes (at all levels) who want to reach their greatest potential.
One of the primary techniques in the book (which I have yet to try on
my own) is visualization. If anyone reading this uses visualization (or
similar tools) as a regular part of training I would be interested
(& grateful) to hear your experiences - what works/doesn't work for
you, how much time you devote on a regular basis, the results you had,
etc.
Re: Development Virgil
This
is a good point and on one level it also brings to my mind the concept
of the warrior's soul. A person who develops their mind, and by
extension, their spirit or soul, is that person a better fighter than a
person who does not do this? And, conversely, a person who knows his
soul, is he at an advantage in terms of his physical art? I use the
term better to refer to larger concepts of good and evil, right and
wrong, morality, and not just the ability to defeat someone in battle.
XXXXXXXXX
Chi, "Iron body," Grappling and Reality
Chi, "Iron body," Grappling and Reality Major Al
QUESTION=Is
iron body training any good? Also, I've heard incredible things about
the SCARS system- how it is the most effective system in the world. I
doubt this based on their complicated grappling.
While
I haven't heard of this system I'm sure there are many similarities to
Ki Chuan Do since much of what is in our system can be found in many
ancient martial arts books such as "Tai Chi Classics by Master Waysun
Liao," so many ofthe principles that we teach are not new per se.
However, and I agree with your
skepticism, this business about
"Iron Body" is utter nonsense, many people are fooled by this because
they seek the "mystical" in their training rather than
what
really works. They want to believe there is some super secret technique
which makes them invincible with an average body. Who knows maybe the
founders of this system can make some of this stuff work for them under
controlled conditions [i.e., in martial arts demonstrations and other
parlor tricks], but I
seriously doubt that the average student of their system can make it work under the chaotic conditions of a real fight.
I
can tell you countless stories of some of my own father and uncles
feats of strength, that seem like they come right out of a comic book.
Things like punching and breaking liquor bottles without cutting their
hands to cracking 2x4's with their bare hands. However, in no way does
this imply that my dad or
uncles possess some form of mystical
chi power. Besides these guy's wouldn't know Iron Body if it bit them
on the rear end, and they probably think "chi" is
some form of
French cuisine. These guy's were "corn fed-country bred" farm boys from
western North Carolina who worked as laborers for most of their lives,
and anyone who is familiar with this area of the country knows that
such men raised in the 1940's and 50's are the norm rather than the
exception.
As for SCARS, I've had an opportunity to see
some of their videos and I agree with you, the over emphasis on
complicated grappling techniques causes me to
seriously question
the effectiveness of this system under real combat conditions. And
their claims that SCARS is all that you need are ridiculous, the
Gracie's use to make similar claims and as you have noticed as of late
they have backed away from claiming that Gracie Ju Jitsu is the end all
to be all. Even
though within Ki Chuan Do, we have had an
opportunity to test our methods against various systems and against
some of the most high level practitioners of
various arts, we do
not set ourselves up as the end all to be all of martial artists. We
understand that no matter what you know, including Ki Chuan Do, if
the
bad guy gets the drop on you, then you are done! Remember that
grappling does work "if they're not trying to kill you," and for
sport/ultimate fighting
there's probably nothing better, but
against people hell bent on your destruction it's a disaster waiting to
happen. As with the Iron Body example
above, who knows maybe
they can make some of this stuff work, but they obviously don't know
the kind of psycho street killers that I know. The question I guess I
have for them is do you want to risk your life on such "iffy" techniques?
thanks for your questions.
Major Al
Re: Chi, Virgil
I
don't know much about Iron Body training except that the human body is
tortured in ridiculous ways in order to perform feats of strength that
seem impossible. However, I would like to relate an experience I had
with full contact body training:
Many years ago I
trained in a system of fighting called Kajukenbo. This is an American
system that stresses full contact strikes and throws in it's training
method. Class usually began with body conditioning that involved
punching and kicking your partner and having your partner punch and
kick you with as much force as he/she could muster to your torso, arms,
and legs. Sometimes this was done blindfolded so that you could not see
when you were going to be struck. The recipient would "Yatze" (like a
Kiai) the strikes in order to train muscle tension control in the area
being struck to prevent serious internal injury. We also did medicine
ball training where a 25lb ball was thrown on your stomach at full
force from 5 to 8 ft. above while you were lying on your back.
The purpose of this training was fourfold:
1.
To develop the muscle integrity and the ability to control that
integrity when struck in order to minimize pain and ward off injury.
2. To develop the sensitivity to apply 1 when needed.
3.
To develop a feel for what it is like to hit at full power the human
body (the person doing the striking gets trained too). Remember, he
human body is not flat like a board, nor is it perfectly cylindrical
like a heavy bag. Nor does it just hang there silently and
unresponsively - I've come to understand the term "kicking the sh*t"
out of someone" as it applied literally in Kajukenbo.
4. To
develop the mental fortitude to ignore the pain, dizziness, nausea from
being hit hard so that the mind can focus on other things, like
(hopefully) counterattacking, evading, or whatever your game plan is.
Now,
I've been in a couple of situations where i'd have to say that this
training helped me immensely. The flip side is that, 20 years later, my
body is feeling the punishment. Looking back, if I knew then what I
know now, I would not do this kind of training.
With
regard to mystical powers, I was at a Hsing-I demo once where I was the
"dummy" being demoed on. The demonstrator, a well respected Hsing-I
person, had me face a wall so that I couldn't see behind me. A few
minutes later i felt someone touch the back of my head. I turned to see
the Hsing-I person. Only thing is, he was standing 20 feet away. Now, i
am the last person to believe in mystical powers, magic, supernatural
forces, etc., but, this is an event that is wholely unexplained in my
mind.
Re: Chi, Ken
Warning:LONG MESSAGE
Hello
fellas, I'm a SCARS practitioner myself. Been at it since 1998 so I
basically know the system pretty well. During the time I trained in
SCARS I literally looked at 100s of systems and styles to fill what I
percieved to be some gaps in my SCARS training. I knew what they were
but no one out there seemed to have the answers.
Enter Attack
Proof. I saw the book at the bookstore, went through it and put it down
because looking at the pictures it looked like another self defense
book for average beginners who didn't understand the meaning of a
killing system. Well, I was wrong. I just so happened to look through
the book another time and I noticed that some of your wrist escapes
were identical to some principles taught in SCARS Compression
groundfighting. I also noticed how close you all were to your
attackers, in SCARS the principle of jamming your attackers limbs(arms
and legs) and fighting chest to chest is one of the key elements. My
biggest complaint with SCARS however was its stressing upon applying
strikes and then leverages to attacker's punches. I also got the
impression that they greatly underestimate the speed and intelligence
of attackers. I read through Attack Proof and I realized without doubt
that this was the system I'd been searching for. It seemed so
applicable to actual full speed, chaotic, bodies flying everywhere
fights.
I say all of that to let you all understand
that I'm not some zealot(tons of them exist) that trains in SCARS and
believes its the absolute undefeatable pinnacle. Even though its
probably one of the top 3 systems I've seen for really fast and
efficient street fighting, it still has flaws. But my question to you
all is this. When you say SCARS is filled with complicated grappling,
what do you mean by that? Are you speaking about Gracie style Ju Jitsu
ground locks/leverages and such or are you speaking about the Aikido
style standing wrist leverages and throws? The reason I ask is because
I'm 100% sure that SCARS doesn't teach any resemblance to Gracie style
Ju Jitsu. In fact they stress that you should never fear going to the
ground but that you should never stay on the ground fighting the way
they do in competition because in war you can be stomped or bludgeoned
to death by a shovel. I'm just making sure we're on the same page guys
because if you're speaking about the Aikido type actions I completely
agree that stuff is absolute unrealistic nonsense. Unfortunately, SCARS
is filled with a lot of this lunacy even though I feel the good
outweighs the bad.
The only thing that kind of has me
mystified is the idea of the no inch punch. Maybe my training has
brainwashed me but how can dropping with no real penetration stop an
attacker? In SCARS we are taught to penetrate 6-12 inches to affect an
attacker's nerves, organs and bones combined with an offensive mindset
so that the attacker can't roll off the strikes. All of this can be
performed practically chest to chest because you're constantly using
rotational strikes. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see a no
inch punch actually dropping someone with the same type of efficiency
as the SCARS strikes. Keep in mind that I'm brand new to this system so
I may very possibly be missing something very obvious. Which leads to
my next set of question. What tapes should I order and are there any
redundancies in the videos? I can't wait to start training with you
guys.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
WHY YOU MIGHT NEED SELF DEFENSE! Matt Kovsky
Street attack stuns visiting doctors
Psychiatrists at S.F. convention get dose of reality on streets
Katherine Seligman, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, May 23, 2003
Members of the nation's largest psychiatric association discovered San
Francisco's mentally ill homeless problem up close this week, as they stepped
out of their annual convention and were surprised -- some say shocked -- by the
legions of people living on the street.
The worst, however, came when an official of the American Psychiatric
Association, a Baltimore doctor known for being an advocate for the indigent
mentally ill, was assaulted by an apparently homeless man with a history of
psychiatric problems.
Knocked unconscious by the seemingly random attack near Union Square on Sunday
morning, the doctor spent the week recovering at San Francisco General Hospital.
Dr. Geetha Jayaram, an associate professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine and the scientific program committee chairwoman of
the psychiatric association, is expected to be released soon.
Police arrested Aaron Matthew Hull, 32, who has no local address and has a
history of being detained for psychiatric evaluations, according to law
enforcement sources. He was being held in the county jail on two felony counts
of assault and battery and is scheduled to appear in court today to determine if
he is competent to face charges.
The irony of the attack was not lost on the association's members and other
convention goers, many of whom said that they'd been noting the large numbers of
homeless people on the streets ever since they arrived Saturday.
"It's kind of shocking," said James McNulty, head of the National Alliance for
the Mentally Ill. "I've been walking around the hotels and up the hill to
Fisherman's Wharf. It was very disheartening."
Long before the attack happened, the APA had planned a news conference Wednesday
to publicize past and future threatened cuts to what the group's leaders called
the nation's "crumbling mental health system." More than 27 million people with
mental health problems are facing "personal health care disasters," they said,
because of Medicaid and state funding cuts to mental health programs.
"Imagine what it would be like to have heart disease and be told, 'Sorry, there
is a budget crisis, we can't afford your beta blockers,' " McNulty said at the
news conference. "Can you imagine the outcry?"
McNulty, who lives in Omaha, said that he had "never seen greater contrast
between degradation and great wealth. If you think things are bad in San
Francisco now, wait until the cuts happen. And I'm not just talking like Chicken
Little."
Jayaram had come to the convention, which drew about 19,000 participants, to
speak, among other topics, about outreach to indigent mentally ill people in
India.
Her husband, Jay Kumar, said his wife is "doing better but not 100 percent right
yet."
'TALKING TO HIMSELF'
He said he had been walking with her Sunday morning when he saw a man "talking
to himself and eating" as he paced on a sidewalk near Post and Grant streets.
Police said witnesses told them the suspect was making loud comments and yelling
at Jayaram and her companions. Kumar said the suspect passed them and was about
20 to 30 yards away when he suddenly approached Jayaram from behind and struck
her. Kumar said he did not know if the assailant used his fist or a weapon.
Someone at the scene called 911, and Hull was arrested a short time later.
Kumar said he was concerned that so many people who appear to need mental health
treatment are wandering around the streets in San Francisco -- although he said
he did not know anything about Hull's background.
"I don't think proper treatment is being given to these people," said Kumar, who
is not a psychiatrist. "As far as I'm concerned, it's a scary situation."
Mental health advocates and psychiatrists cautioned against stereotyping the
mentally ill, saying that although they are more likely to be homeless, most
aren't violent. But advocates also warned that budget cuts may only exacerbate
what violence does occur.
CUTS IN HOUSING, TREATMENT
"You have the federal governments cutting housing and the state cutting
treatment, and you end up with all these mentally ill people on the street,"
said Paul Boden, head of the Coalition on Homelessness. "You have all these
people wandering around with no housing or treatment."
P.J. Johnston, a spokesman for Mayor Willie Brown, said the city is faced with a
"vexing paradox" because it was inundated with people seeking mental health
treatment "partly as a result of the fact that we do more than anyone else" to
help people.
"If you add to that the abandonment by the state and federal agencies that
traditionally help people with mental health issues, you see that San Francisco
is in a difficult position," he said.
Some psychiatrists at the meeting said they were dismayed when they walked
around their hotels and the Union Square area. Inside, they attended the
hundreds of meetings on new drug therapies and scientific advancement in
treatment. But outside, they couldn't help noticing the population they have
dedicated their careers to helping.
"It's ironic to see the number of homeless mentally ill on the streets here,"
said John Kane, a psychiatrist at Hillside Hospital in New York, moments after
attending a symposium that discussed the relative merits of a new generation of
anti-psychotic drugs. "It's striking, and I'm from New York."
Re: WHY YOU MIGHT NEED SELF DEFENSE! JP
If
you look in the book ATTACK PROOF and read the story about Mike the
sailor you will find that this situation with the mentally ill is not
new. It may get worse. After years working security at a Psychiatric
institute Mark K. could give you some insight into what can happen when
the meds are not enough. You could also talk or Email Gavin P. for
direct hands on information on serious violent attacks while working in
a Mental facility. You want to talk about chaos, blood on the floor and
walls, broken bones? KCD allowed these men to control situations where
less trained people would have to rely on the delicate ministrations of
the police. That is if they could access a phone or other help. Want to
talk about paper work? Enough said. JP
XXXXXXXXXX
Relaxation
Relaxation Clint
I've asked Major Al about this but would appreciate any additional feedback.
KCD
follows a long tradition of training with looseness and relaxation.
Most of the "internal" arts stress the same thing. No problem.
And
I think it is clear to anyone who tests it that you can hit harder and
faster more relaxed than if you are more tense. No problem.
The
question I have been wrestling with is what happens when you get into a
REAL kill or be killed situation and the so-called "fight or flight
response" kicks in.
The medical people are saying that
this flood of chemicals shuts OFF your ability to DO a more relaxed
action. They say you CAN'T relax.
My own experiences seem to reinforce this but I don't know everything.
It is pretty pointless to train for relaxation if when the rubber hits the road you CAN'T do it.
I would appreciate any feedback on this issue.
Thanks for any suggestions, examples - shoot, even med journal articles if you know any!
By the way, great work guys! Attackproof is really looking good!
Re: Relaxation Matt Kovsky
Great
questions! I think the problem lies with the definition of relaxation.
Even the tai chi classics say that relaxation does not mean becoming
like limp lomein noodles. It is idealized instead as a coiling,
springy, whip-like, ferocious relaxation. Pick up an alley cat by the
scruff of the neck (if you can!) and smack it a few times. Notice the
flesh ripped from your body. Notice how it twisted out of your grasp
despite the fact you have 10 times the strength of a 15 pound cat. This
is what we're talking about. What is often referred to as "the
classical mess" is when the mind is trained to fight like a martial art
robot and respond computer-like with pre-planned counters to a chaotic
attack and your brain and nervous sytem siezes and locks up with
tension because it can't respond naturally (like the cat), or
effectively (with simple basic strikes).
Re: Relaxation Clint
Great answer, Matt!
In fact, my old tom cat just went at it the other day with another cat and the images of his actions are fresh in my mind.
I
don't see that what he did was "relaxed" by any stretch of the
imagination. He was a tensed up, ball of striking fury. In fact he was
staring out the screen door for hours after his altercation, fur still
standing on end and not the least bit "relaxed".
Would I be correct in assuming that the "relaxation" you are referring to is actually quite tense and convulsive?
If so, I think I know better how to train then.
Thanks for any additional feedback you might offer.
Re: Relaxation Matt Kovsky
I'd
simply make the clear distinction that tension is an INABILITY to sense
CHANGE in your opponent's motion as well as the inability to CHANGE and
adapt your own. Look up the definition of the tai chi term Peng chin
which means a spring-like resiliance. An enraged cat is NOT tense, it
is poised like a spring; notice how under full adrenalin power it is
able to twist, writhe, coil and arch its body in order to avoid and
deliver bites and gouges. It is neither limp nor frozen with tension.
It follows its genetic programing. Ki Chuan Do attempts to use the
basic ape-like attributes of the human body, amplify them, and guide
them. We contend that most martial art training opposes these
attributes and imposes unnatural motion on the human body. We see what
the cat does naturally and attempt to cultivate it, not regiment it,
mechanize it and Mac-Dojo-ize it(!) so you wind up with people thinking
fight scenes in the Matrix are the ideal, or with cops and soldiers
trained to use locks and holds in combat which are proven by forensic
and military research to be inadequate under life and death
circumstances.
Re: Relaxation Ross Makoske
Being
tense, I've noticed, also gives you tunnel vision and prevents body
unity. Tense people tend to hit like rock em sock em robots. I've
caught myself doing this before. It seems to me that the ki chuan do
pronciple of raising the shoulders is contrary to most martial arts
relaxation principles, although it is the body's reaction to danger and
it serves to protect the body.
Re: Relaxation JP
If
you are attacked by a swarm of bees do you get into a stance or do you
stiffen up in a tight ball allowing the bees to have at you? I hope
not. You will find yourself slapping at them and running at breakneck
speed to the nearest cover. You will not attemp a judo throw on the
bees nor will you set up a perfect barrage of reverse punches.You sill
act naturally. During life and death struggles many victims move at
incredible speed to ward off a knife. Most survive. It is mostly the
ones who curl up in a ball that don't survive. KCD training is geared
to enhance the natural survival mechanism. Practicing only simplified
spasmodic techniques are good if you have a limited time to work in.
Many of my friends who are masters in CQB prefer to practice these
methods primarily. I have noticed, however, that once their balance was
seriously challenged or they were struck unawares they also reverted to
the natural high speed survival mechanisms which I have stated above.
KCD takes a lot longer to study but it does actually work extremely
well and gives a distinct advantage when mixed with all other types of
training. Eyes open to the universe but keep your feet. Yours, JP
Re: Relaxation Gavin
A
friend of mine, josh, just began training. his brother nate, jumped on
him from behind to surprise him and got a face full of hands and
elbows. my friends response was "i just flinched." training loose helps
you to react naturally. when you train loose its like a conductor in
front of an orchestra as he takes them through a soft slow relaxing
score. about four months in and my friend josh who started as a "stiff
fighter" is starting to react in a loose but lethal manner. responding
to what he feels. thats another huge benefit to loose training. you
repond at reflex speed. josh reacted to his brother at the speed of
accidentally touching a burning hot surface. BUT; he FELT a brother on
his back so he reacted but without intent, and did it automatically -
without thought.) if he had felt an assailant with intent he would have
responded accordingly. ive been training with master perkins for about
10 years and ive seen this happen over and over again. loose traing is
what makes all the above possible. the looser you are the faster you
will learn, the tighter you are the slower your progress.
XXXXXXXXXXXX
SLOW METHODICAL INCREMENTAL FLOW
SLOW METHODICAL INCREMENTAL FLOW JOHN PERKINS
I
HAVE NOTICED OVER THE YEARS THAT SLOW MOTION FORMS TRAINING AND
SPARRING HAVE BEEN USED TO ENHANCE SOME MARTIAL ARTISTS' TRAINING. THIS
IS GOOD. FOR THE KCD STUDENTS I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR HOW IMPORTANT VERY
SLOW CONTACT FLOW TRAINING IS. JUST THE FACT THAT YOU ARE MOVING
EXTREMELY SLOWLY WITH FULL ATTENTION TO YOUR BODY FROM YOUR TOES TO
YOUR HEAD CAUSES A MEDITATION EFFECT TO OCCUR. IF YOU ARE MOVING SLOWLY
WHILE PERFORMING UNCOOPERATIVE MOVEMENTS AGAINST YOUR PARTNER/S YOU
WILL DEVELOP THE ABILITY TO BE SPONTANEOUS DURING ACTUAL FIGHTS. YOU
MUST, HOWEVER, PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO THE EXPERIENDED STUDENTS AND
ESPECIALLY THE INSTRUCTORS AS TO HOW YOU ARE STRIKING/DEFENDING.
THROUGH MANY YEARS OF STUDY AND ACTUAL STREET EXPERIENCE I AND THE
ADVANCED INSTRUCTORS HAVE LEARNED WHAT MOVEMENTS CAN AND WILL OCCUR
DURING SERIOUS FULL SPEED HOMICIDAL ATTACKS. WE HAVE MOSTLY LEARNED
THAT ANYTHING CAN AND MOST LIKELY WILL HAPPEN WHICH NO AMOUNT OF
MEMORIZATION WILL WORK AGAINST. SOME WELL MEANING INSTRUCTORS WILL HAVE
THEIR STUDENTS MOVE SLOWLY BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A GRIP ON THE CHAOTIC
AND INTENSE TYPES OF MOTION THAT OCCUR DURING SERIOUS BLOODBATHS. I
HAVE WATCHED THE TRAINING THAT GOES ON IN SOME FOREIGN BASED MILITARY
ORIENTED MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOLS AND HAVE FOUND THEM LACKING SOME CRUCIAL
ELEMENTS. WHEN YOU PRACTICE SLOWLY WITH PROPER GUIDANCE AND INTENTION
YOU WILL GAIN ABILITIES THAT WILL ELUDE MOST MARTIAL ARTISTS AND CLOSE
COMBAT EXPERTS. MOST MILITARY INSTRUCTORS BELIEVE THAT SUBTLE BALANCE,
EVASION AND STRIKES SEEMINGLY OUT OF NOWHERE ARE FANTASY DURING A FULL
BLOWN ATTACK. FOR THE MOST PART THEY ARE RIGHT. THE STUDY OF EXTREMELY
SLOW REALITY BASED MOVEMENT WILL, HOWEVER, GIVE YOU AN ADVANTAGE TO
JUST PRACTICING MEMORIZED TECHNIQUE AT MEDIUM, SLOW, AND HIGH SPEED.
THIS IS BECAUSE INTRINSIC TO ANY PHYSICAL MOVEMENT BY A HUMAN BEING IS
THE FACT THAT THE EXTREMELY SUBTLE MOVEMENTS WHICH GIVE THE "GIFTED"
PERSON THE ADVANTAGE IN EITHER A FIGHT OR SPORTING EVENT CAN BE
DISCOVERED AND ENHANCED IN MOST PEOPLE'S BODIES ALSO. I TRAINED WITH
AND AGAINST PEOPLE WHO WERE AND ARE MORE GIFTED THAN MYSELF IN MANY
PHYSICAL WAYS. I HAD ONE ADVANTAGE THOUGH AND THAT WAS A HIGHLY
DEVELOPED EYE AND MEMORY WHEN IT CAME TO REPLAY OF THE EVENTS. THIS
GIFT I USED TO A HIGH DEGREE WHEN TRAINING MYSELF AS WELL AS MY
STUDENTS. REMEMBER, THE SLOWER YOU GO THE STRONGER YOU BECOME. ALSO
REMEMBER KCD UTILIZES CERTAIN PRINCIPLES THAT NO OTHER ARTS DO. DO NOT
BE FOOLED BY IMITATIONS. GOOD LUCK, JP
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Striking Mechanics Ken
I
just read through the entire book again and I'm just as impressed as
ever. However, there are some things that are still mindboggling. Keep
in mind that I'm doing this solely to be constructive so don't take
this as a veiled insult or some form of arrogance.
You
all advocate penetrating 2 inches on strikes to get somewhat of a
splash effect so that you won't go off balance. OK,(sorry that I keep
doing this) I was taught that the only way to really effect someone is
to penetrate at least 3 inches, ideally 6-12.. The reason is because
since the body is made of primarily water and mobile joints, the body
will compress 3 inches before you can even begin to effect nerves or
the skeletal system. There is no chance that I would go off balance or
even rely on the attacker's body because my former training had us
doing some balance stances that literally allowed me to adapt to the
KCD balance drills not in days, not in minutes, but in seconds. I was
also trained to never reach with my arms but to always move my legs and
feet.
There were even a couple of fight scenarios
described(I know, the nerve of me) where I strongly felt that the
fighter could've dropped the attacker probably a few hits sooner if he
would've used some really good penetrating blows simply because he was
able to get into a highly advantageous position. Now keep in mind that
I'm not talking about external punches either because according to the
definition, the punches I perform are definitely internal and don't
require strength. However, they do require chambering so thats
definitely a knock against them. It would take a while for me to get
into that part but something I would suggest as an example of what I'm
currently speaking on is to go to page 50, 3.4b of Attack Proof. If you
drive through with that strike at a 45 degree downward angle, the
attacker will either go down or he'll have to place one of his feet
back faster than the force vector to maintain his balance. If you don't
drive through, the attacker can simply recover and you'll have to
continue striking with more fast strikes. If you drive him down,(this
also applies to the bladder as a target), the attacker will be on the
ground and be succeptible to ankle and knee breaks from heel stomps or
whatever you want to do as long as you don't stop striking. The good
thing is that it wouldn't matter if hes drugged or crazed because
through these physics you are manipulating the attacker with body
weight and not pain.
When it comes to getting into advantageous positions I've seen none better than KCD, which is why I'm here.
The
question I guess I'm posing is whether there is some other reason why
you only penetrate 2 inches? Once you get in certain positions theres
nothing your attacker can do in defense anyway. Are you sacrificing
something else in the process of driving more? Let me stop right here
and point out something, I'm not trying to play Mr. Bad Ass because I
personally think I'd get whipped severely by someone that really
understood KCD but I simply feel the need to challenge the accepted
wisdom:)
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Striking Mechanics John Perkins
Ken,
let not your heart be troubled. What you have described is a reference
in ATTACK PROOF to splashing an attackers limb while continuing on into
a head or body shot. The 2 inch strike is applied using dropping force.
This enables you to not get caught up with blocking and then applying a
seperate strike. In KCD you will often move into your attacker by drop
stepping or single leg weight displacement while delivering a strike or
body deflection or simply slamming your opponent to the ground while
knocking an arm or weapon out of the way with the same attacking hand.
In KCD you will deliver as deep a strike as possible. Usually a strike
will penetrate an attacker's torso at such a rate of speed that he will
not be thrown away from the KCD practitioner. Instead of pushing an
opponent it is far more effective to crush a target area. Remember the
same energy it takes to push someone 6 to 20 feet can be applied to the
body with proper dynamics to penetrate the body. As far as any
illustrations in the AP book go you can step into any strike to achieve
the depth needed for incapacitation or worse. The reference to loosing
balance generally applies to limb attacks. In most cases you don't want
to over reach and loose your balance during a fight. If you do loose
your balance and start to fall to the ground you could try to take a
piece of your attacker with you. If you get to the ground you should
apply all the dirtiest tricks with all the speed and power you can
muster. If you have a multiple attacker situation you can apply the
native american ground techniques combined with all the KCD principles.
Some of the most basic of these ground fighting techniques can be found
in the latest seminar video. The native american fighting methodology
must be experienced to feel it's effectiveness. I have shown some of it
to a few serious ground/shoot/UFC fighters and Major Ridenhour has
demonstrated it against a number of military instructors trained in the
Gracie method. All of these individuals found it to be devastating.
Incidentally I don't feel it disrespectful to ask questions. What I do
find annoying is when instructors will talk against KCD without having
any direct experience with us. As far as doing the drills in the book
goes they are important for gaining the ability to strike far more
deeply and effectively than the vast majority of fighting methods can
perform. An internal strike refers to one that leaves the striker in
near perfect balance with very little muscular effort. If a strike is
chambered it by most Tai Chi definitions is not internal. By chambering
you must remove an attacking limb away from the target thus taking too
much time which upsets foward energy application and giving too much
warning to a capable opponent that something is coming. Most people who
chamber their strikes are thwarted by the application of quite a few
KCD principles. One of my students the Super Welterweight boxing
champion of the NABO, Doug Gray, can verify this fact.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Size differences Bob
I
am only 5' 5'' tall. As a result, there are many people so tall that
the neck or head are not viable targets. Am I mistaken? Are the neck
and head still good targets, or are there other potential targets that
would be better when a large size difference exists?
Re: Size differences Ross Makoske
There
are better people to answer this, but I have some thoughts. Low attacks
to the knees, groin, and shins can bring an opponent down to your level
so you can strike the neck and head if necessary. Areas of the body,
such as the solar plexis, and ribs are not as lethal, but they often
cause an opponent to curl up and bring their hands in front of those
targets, leaving the head nad neck exposed. Don't forget about the
kidneys and between the shoulderblades, as striking here can cause the
back and neck to arch back, exposing the chin point and neck. Being
short has advantages when striking the neck as you can strike from
under the jaw at an upward angle. Being short, you should train your
elbows, as they are often best to attack the body and you aren't
eliminating any range on your opponent-only jamming him.
Re: Size differences Humble Student
I
am 5'2" tall. I constantly hit the tall guys in the eyes and throat.
People don't stand tall when fighting. Their eyes/throat are almost
always within reach. If they do stand tall, they are easily taken off
balance. As they try to recover their balance, throat them. Don't
backup and don't let them backup. Then they will have reach over you.
Go for the groin. Even if you fake a shot, amazingly they usually bend
over. Again, throat them. Never try to beat them with strenth. Be
sneaky while going for the eyes.
If you can, go to an Attack Proof class or seminar. The instructors would be happy to show you how.
Humble Student
Re: Size differences Andre'
As
having worked out with Humble Student the other day , I am 6'2" , I was
was being tested severly and can attest to his "sneakiness" , I was
rather impressed by his subversiveness of attack. He kept me off
balance and struck often and was just as impressed with him as the
larger students.
Size doesnt matter .
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
cane defense david davies
Do any of the Attack Proof tapes deal with
self-defense using a cane. I use a cane for
walking and support so any system of fighting
I might use would have to be adaptable to my
use of the cane. I tried the Russian Systema,
but after just two lessons the head instructor
said I was not fit enough to come to his school.
I guess they (systema people) don't think people
with disabilities need to know self-defense.
Re: cane defense Matt Kovsky
Both the original Attack Proof tape and the 2001 Seminar Tape have detailed cane defense info.
Re: cane defense JP
I
have been training with canes at least since 1966 when I broke my
ankle. I also trained in Hapkido cane methodology. I can teach from the
one footed stance some devastating techniques. The cane has often been
my primary weapon during much traveling where I could not legally carry
a handgun. You don't have to be in top shape to use a cane for defense.
I have taught people with cereberal palsy and other disabilities. The
use of the cane is nearly unlimited. If you require private instruction
you can reach me at attack@attackproof.com. Good luck, JP
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Indonesian Combat==SILAT Jack
Hi, wondering if you any experience w/the above....I understand it is the only current combat
art still in field testings (with all the wars down there) and fluid and superior to anything
out there....
Any conclusions on this?????
KUNTAO Jack
how bout this ??
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT JP
There
are some martial arts that are being tested all over the globe as we
speak. Most of the members of various military forces give feedback to
their instructors through channels as to the effectiveness of all their
training. Certain Spec. Ops. group members both in the military and law
enforcement that I know of personally are training with and using KCD
out in the field. Be mindful as to how various martial/combat arts are
advertised. Many are out there riding the hype wagon. Some hype is
necessary to get attention in our sensory overloaded society. Much good
information can be found out there. It takes some real experience to
begin to separate the useful from the BS. The latest thing which was
predicted by Prof. Bradley J. Steiner a few years ago is the addition
of the word combat to many martial disciplines in order to jump on the
combat craze that he felt was inevitable. Much good information is out
there to learn. How many of these "combat" arts can stand the test of
the windstorm and chaos of actual battle? We at Attack Proof Inc. are
always on the lookout for methodologies that can be of real service to
our people in the line of fire. I have worked with various Silat
practitioners using both armed and unarmed techniques. Some of these
techniques are formidable when applied properly. Take care, JP
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT Dante
I
have trained in Silat, and taught for a while. I have written emails to
Attacl Proof and commented on the similiarities. I have found Guided
Chaos to run many parrallels with Indonesian Silat but without the the
extras. In silat there is a lot of cultural tradition, however if you
boil it down it is basically guided chaos. But I have found that in
Silat , as in many arts, there a techniques taught that unless
practiced for years, would be impractical for real life application.
And I will say that Silat isnt the "ONLY" art doing anything. None are.
I found it to be the most street effective art based on its principles,
1-multiple attackers 2-by suprise 3-they're armed
Silat
is fluid , fast, and destructive. However, it unfortunate that you will
find many instructors to be DEEPLY steeped in the occult. Once I
reached a certain level of proficiency i was asked to delve into
spiritual training, mantras,mudras,genie dolls, animl possession, you
name it...So be wary
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT John Perkins
I
have found that many of my friends who are world class stick/knife
competitive fighters are all still using methods which are based on
memorized responses to certain agreed upon attack/defense modalities.
This is also true or their hand to hand combat. Remember that anyone
can cause chaos during a confrontation. The ability to deal with the
unchoreographed life and death fighting that happens especially to
police officers in the field does NOT look like any of the memorized
martial arts. Even the advanced practitioners of many of the Indonesian
and Phillipino arts will fight chaotically when put to the test. If you
doubt me get a hold of some of the Dog Brothers stick fighting tapes
these guys are crazy. They hit for real and have taken on quite a few
adepts and usually have won by breaking some bones. If you are dealing
with all possibilities in combat remember you can fight in a car on the
train on the side of a mountain in the winter snow when you are ready
or not. My father told me many years ago not to deify any teacher or
philosophy. No one has the corner on all forms of combat. Causing chaos
should not be confused with controlling it. Hands on experience is the
best stimulus to learning well. I hope that this rambling post will
strike the proper center of thinking in some of you. If you are
confused read this again. If you need further clarification see me in
person. Many thanks for your patience. Thank you, JP
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT Occult Michael Coplon
I
am curious as to why you say "be wary". I think that some occult
practices like invoking the spirit of animals (animal possesion) are
not good for mental health but I am wondering what your thoughts on all
of this are. By the way I am neither for or against the occult. Most
martial arts have an occult (hidden) aspect.
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT Ross Makoske
so,
what would you say is the benefit of technique training? And isn't
silat based on the use of techniques trained in a less and less
structured environment leading to combat? I look at it as moving
mediatation directed towards targeting specific areas (like close
combat training basically) and I try to incorporate balance and body
unity to get the most out of it.
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT JP
You
hit the nail on the head. In over 47 years of study of martial arts I
have come across the problem of many teachings based on the philosophy
of learning and memorizing many techniques and after much practice you
somehow become able to handle real confrontations. Some people have
been able to do this. Many Indonesian and Philippino martial arts
operate from this perspective and it is especially effective for them
because much of their practice simulates reality more closely than the
majority of martial arts. KCD is not about this. From the beginning you
study principles of movement geared to allow you to deal with non
choreographed attacks that are the norm in the world of the homicidal
maniac as well as the prison trained fighter or serious experienced
street fighter or well trained military warrior. You can add KCD
principles to your present training, assuming it is reality based, or
work the principles directly in a KCD classroom. Remember, take nothing
for granted in battle. You may have to fight bare-handed against an
armed opponent(s) on the beach, on the side of a snow covered mountain,
in your living room, from your bed in the dark, in the back seat of a
car, while handcuffed, while half dazed, at a 7-11, on a roof top,
during a flight, anywhere anytime without rehearsal, with your heart
pounding and your vision in a tunnel. I learned early on that no-one
can predict what will happen in a fight and the best survivors were
those who could adapt to instant reality. KCD was invented to allow a
person to maximize their ability to react or control a conflict
immediately with nearly no time gap. The use of the cane, knife, and
gun are also taken to a high degree for instant decisive defense or
offense. KCD should be experienced personally for a higher degree of
insight. Good luck, JP
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT dante
In
response, I agree that silat fails in the same regard as other martial
arts, in so much as it does teach technique. I found that only after
studying it, and teaching it did I arrive at the same conclusions as
JP. Specifically that the progression of arts are taught backwards,
chaos should be paramount immediately, and not after 10 years.
On
the subject of the occult, here is a list of practices I have been
exposed to: Kabbalism, Animism, Shamanism...Creating objects of power,
or receptacles for your chi, people claim to shoot you with a bolt of
energy from across the room, people trying to move things with their
mind, spirit vampirism( people thinking they can suck your life force
through your eyes with a stare) Creating dolls of clay and putting
elements of yourself in them, saliva etc...
All in all
there are only so many techniques you can teach before your students
know as much as you, intellectually anyway. Hereafter you will con
artists who want to convince you to stay and keep learning the REAL
ART--the metaphysic garbage. You see they always need an edge,
something you dont have!!! Occultic activity is generally unhealthy,
spiritually, and psychologically. You will find that most occultic
activity is centered around forms of mind control---check out
Counterfit Revival by Hank Hannegraaff for examples such techniques.
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It's All The Same - Isn't It
I've
always found it interesting that people see Attack Proof / Ki Chuan Do
as it's just like this art or that art. JKD, Systema, Aiki Jitsu,
Aikido, Ba Kua, and the list goes on and on. It's true there are
similarities in some parts of each of these arts, but there are some
very real, very significant differences. What have you heard it's like,
or what do you think it's like and what are the differences you see?
Re: It's All The Same - Isn't It Michael Coplon
The
system that I have the most knowledge of is Chen style Tai Chi Chuan.
The second most is Yang style Tai Chi Chuan and the third is Ki Chuan
Do (Attack Proof). There is a pretty big difference between the way
that most people apply Chen Style and the way that KCD practioners
operate, although most of the principles are the same. The Chen style
trainning methods that are mostly taught are Nei Gung exercises to make
the body very strong, healthy, aligned in gravity, etc, etc. This is
good but like many other arts, these methods are confused with how to
apply the art for self defense. The result is that most Chen Style
exponents use too much strength and fight at a longer range than KCD.
KCD is more yielding and let's the opponent get very close where the
fight can be finnished almost imeadiately. In addition most Chen style
practioners do not train in a way that will prepare them for a really
chaotic situation that is unfolding in an unfamiliar way. I don't know
for sure but from what I have read and what I have experienced the
combat trainning has been for the most part lost. The closest thing
left is push hands and this is really only a trainning to develop
certain attributes. Form applictions give some intersting concepts but
taken the wrong way leads to Tai Chi by the numbers which is worse than
wothless.
Yang style Tai Chi Chuan tends to be more
yieldingk, but like Chen style, the realities of real no rules fighting
do not seem to be addressed as they are in KCD. Also it seems that the
only way to develope the body and health to the extent of Chen Style is
to do serious standing in the Yang Style postures. This is usually
harder to do (very boring) than it is to do several sets of Chen Style
solo form. Actually the effects are not identical for the Yang style
standing and the Chen style form but they are comparable. The Yang
style standing gives slightly less health benefits but a bit more
development that can be used for fighting. This is not to say that the
Yang style solo form is wothless.It still has a little bit of health,
fall prevention, stress reduction and other such benefits, even for the
old and tight bodies of most senior citizens. And once the body has
been properly develop and opened up the Yang style solo form is at
least of equal value for improving health and gainning self defense
attributes as the Chen style solo form.
KCD, has
limited, extremely boring solo developmental exercises which give a lot
of useful fighting attributes but little or no health benefits. Also
the execises are such that no one mistakes them for fighting
applications (at least no one that I know). On the other hand it seems
to me that most of the lower level KCD students do not practice these
exercises or else they would learn much more quickly where there feet
are and the ground is and how to use this knowledge. It is not possible
to do any real KCD without this level of awareness. Once the students
pass this basic level what they are doing seems like what combat Tai
Chi Chuan could be, ought to be and maybe once was.
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attackproof site Tom Daly
Hey
John and everyone at Attack Proof... the site is very informative... I
have no martial arts background.. so I am receiving everything with a
fresh mind and I find it all very accessible. I've asked this question
to John before, but now I'll ask the forum... Can I, without having any
background at all in martial arts and having been in only a handful of
street fights (non bloodbaths), become an effective fighter in the rare
situation that I need to protect my family from an attacker. I've been
to one class and was intimidated by the rest of the students who all
seemed to have extensive knowledge of at least two forms of self
defense.... How can I confront someone taller and stronger than me with
multiple belts in martial arts? Thanks for any input everyone...
Re: attackproof site kevin
While
there are many more students and instructors of KCD better suited than
I to answer your questions I will give you my 2-cents. Whatever John's
response to your question was I'm sure was sufficient and complete.
However, much of a "doubting Tom" that you may be this is the best and
most realistic form of self defense that I have ever experienced. I
have studied various other martial arts systems. I'm sure that you are
not the first person to be intimdated when attending your first class.
The thing to do is to fight through your initial fears and keep coming
to class. Every student that I have come across is very interested in
helping others learn as they learn themselves. While learning how to
protect yourself and your love ones John will also teach you how to
overcome those fears and put you in the right state of mind. There are
quite a few students who while small in stature do not get intimidated
by others who may be taller or larger than themselves. In all of the
other arts that I have taken I never been around more confident (but
not egoistical) martial artists than those of KCD.
As
far as confronting so called multi belted martial artists I suggest you
read the Ask Major Al archive section of this website. While you are
right that many of John's students have extensive knowledge of at least
two forms of martial arts and some have more, another point to ask
yourself is why are they there? Do you think if they felt their
previous training was sufficient for maximum protection they would be
taking classes from John? Remember these people who have higher
rankings in their previous systems. Sometime talk to some of the
students and you will be amazed at the distance they travel to attend
class. Some as far as 2 and 1/2 hours north of Rockland County at least
two times a week. Last year John use to have a 23 year kung fu master
attend his monday night Hasting, NY, class who came all the way from
Scranton, PA. So my friend that should tell you something.
Re: attackproof site Matt Kovsky
Fear
not Tom, KCD classes have to be about the mellowest, most laid back,
least competitive and least pretentious martial arts schools around,
filled with mostly helpful students of every ability level. In my
experience, KCD provides the quickest, least intimidating and most
supportive no B.S. approach to self-defense for the absolute novice
available. As far as previous knowledge goes, don't be intimidated
because it often gets in the way of learning KCD and many students are
actually here unlearning bad habits that a fresh beginner would be free
of.
Re: attackproof site michaelcoplon
Multiple
belts in martial arts can mean different things as far as serious self
defense abilty goes. In most cases Tom, it means very little or as Matt
said, it means that they have bad habits to unlearn. Unfortunately the
way even good martial arts are typically taught, very few people become
highly skilled at self defense. This could even happen in attack proof
which has excellent training methods. The reason for this is that
knowing how to translate the training into actually usage takes certain
knowledge that can be gained second hand, but then it is get very
watered down. Third forth or fith hand it usually become a oure fantasy.
Few
people have that knowledge, because if they have been it fights those
fights have been more about domination, the pecking order, and so forth
rather than about fighting for your life. You can see this behavior
among animals of of the same species among members of the same pack,
heard, pride or whatever. They actually want to dominate without
fighting so they get big and puffed up, stiff and make a lot of noise
hoping that the other one will back down without a fight. Contrast this
with a predator looking for lunch. you can get an idea just watching a
house cat stalking and attacking its prey. They are very alert loose
and relax. They remain very quiet and then suddenly attact with utter
ferocity. Defending yourself against an armed sociopathic criminal, so
I am told is more like this having to deal with this. The answer so I
am told is to give it right back. I don't have that experience (except
I did escape 2 mugging attemps by changing the script, which I didn't
plan. Something took over and I just went along.) I am very glad I have
not had too face this sort of thing and will not feel that I have
missed out on anything if I never do. Few people have this experience,
and fewer still have had enough of it and survived and are intellegent
enough to draw general conclusion about what is likely to work and how
to train to develop in the right way. With this experience a person can
tell you how to apply a quality art. Few people have the experience and
intellegence and most arts have little or no quality. So you see Tom,
other than for puffing up top look big and making a lot of noise, most
belts don't mean much other being a recipt for tuition. Most belts
simply mean time money and effort spent and not much more when it comes
to dealing with the unthinkable. It is my belief that the belts in
attackproof are differnt and that most of the people are competant in
self defense.
Re: attackproof site
In a
word, yes! Now of course that has to be qualified. If you don't have
too many physical limitations such as loss of the use of a limb or two,
or if you are very old (I have seen effective fighters in our classes
in their 70's), or if you have some other natural challenge that would
generally prevent you from moving freely then you can develop the most
effective fighting skill possible for you. In protecting your family,
you will probably not encounter any perpetrator that has multiple
martial arts ranks and training. They will however probably be armed or
large in number or size and strong. If it's that you don't feel
comfortable with training with people that have so much experience,
then I suggest you just come to class and give the other students and
instructors a chance to show you how much we care about your progress,
comfort, and concerns. I understand that it can be intimidating to walk
into a classroom (gym, legion hall, martial arts center) and see many
powerful looking fully-grown men and some women -- it was a shock for
me too at first. When you attend class, after any initial apprehension
subsides I think you will find that nearly everyone there is supportive
and interested in helping.
Just to be direct in
answering the second half of your question, you will learn ways of
dealing with an attacker that don't involve so much of a confrontation,
but more a way of:
Increasing your awareness in general
Assessing a situation so that you can get away before things get bad
Changing the (mugging, raping, etc.) script on a perpetrator
Setting boundaries and commanding a potential attacker
Using subterfuge to get an attacker to let their guard down
When
necessary, attacking the attacker by means of pre-emptive strike and
repeated ferocious precision strikes, minimizing the confrontation and
ending the conflict
Come to class, read the book
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Re: weaklings & invisiblemaster JP
It
is very clear that KCD must be felt. Much will be revealed that cannot
through reading and video. All the drills lead up to the actual
application of KCD. I have found that only those who have developed
their inner abilities to a great extent have some grasp of what the
drills are about and those are very few. Most of the internal arts fall
far short of high speed real world application. Many people try to
re-create KCD without actual experience. No amount of verbal argument
alone will give anyone insight. The exercises are designed to enhance
the average martial artist's basic abilities and to guide the KCD
student when a class is not available. Unfortunately I and the master
instructors are not able to travel all over the globe. I make it fairly
easy for students to train personally with me from many countries. I
teach the blind and teach from the chair as well. Even if you are not
disabled the blind chair training is an extreme method of gaining
insight. No fight is neccessary to feel the fluid freedom that KCD can
give a person. KCD training stands alone as a method of physical
meditation. You cannot go far without internalizing the concepts. This
is a pure fact. All the principles that can be learned from the book
and videos will put a student in the right direction for enhancing
basic power and all the other attributes. Physical initiation can give
a spark toward a deeper understanding. The ultimate result is to feel
like water and then vapor. This is not an esoteric mind game. It is
real. You can get along very well just with the external methodology
that KCD offers and stay viable in most serious altercations. The
higher levels are there to be discovered even if only for the art of
it. Thanks JP
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Re: Al Coangelo JP
I
have seen many demonstrations of chi/qi and have been teaching and
using very simple, direct methodology to develop chi for fighting
purposes. Many masters of Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I, Ba Gua, Wing Chung
and others have demonstrated their arts to me and we have moved with
each other. As Grand Master Ik Jo Kang said to me in 1971,"Perkins san,
you must not observe with baby eyes" in reference to feats of strength
either physical/external or physical/internal. My father said to always
have a respectful disrespect of all teachers. Dr. Peter DeForrest Head
of Forensic Science at John Jay College in NYC taught me to be a true
scientific sceptic. I am a believer in the Spirit and the Physical. I
test before I believe. Driving a line of men backward or slamming them
to the ground with an internal punch can be mastered by almost anyone
in a short time as long as they are open to the fact that it is not
magic. If a person can withstand the brutal onslaught of a crazed
maniac with a knife who shows up to the party with a likeminded friend
he/she has shown some real world prowess. Matches never can replicate a
real homicidal attack. Size and strength can be dealt with. I have
taught some smaller men to withstand the locked hand wrist wrestling of
men who can bench 500 pounds and I have done it with Nick Calli who
benched 620 when he weighed 275 and I weighed 195. Major Al, Lt. Tom
Barnett, Mike Watson, Stathis Kaperones, Master Tim Carron, Bob
Chomicky, Big George the blood cousin of Bruno Samartino, Master Doc
Miller, Grand Master Waisun Liao, Grand Master Kang, and many more can
drop a man who weighs over 300 pounds with seeming ease with one hand.
My father could punch a hole in a Philco Refrigerator. All of these men
will tell you it does not take a long time and mysterious magic to
accomplish these things. A former 50 year old push hands champion of
the United States from Ossning N.Y. could not control Major Al's 11
year old son at his school using his chi power. No magic was applied. I
witnessed a man jump from a 7 story window while trying to escape me
and other police officers who got up and ran. This is only one of the
many "mysterious" feats I have witnessed personally. The drug dealer
was high on Hashish. Maybe that is the answer. Remember that Bruce Lee
was addicted to Hash. Could that be the answer? Of course I am not
seriously saying to get high on drugs for incredible powers. All I am
saying is that much of what people show as mystical, and unatainable
abilities are not all they are cracked up to be. If you are easily
hypnotized then you will fall for many "magic" feats. Only serious
reality checks will show the truth. Believe in the Spirit but keep your
powder dry. Good luck, JP
Re: Al Coangelo Ken
John, I have 3 part question..
1.
Could you give me a more detailed example of what you mean by locked
hand wrist wrestling and how you taught the smaller men to withstand it
from much stronger men?
2. Do you agree with me that if
a man completely breaks(not a hairline fracture) his leg that he
absolutely cannot run on it being that his skeletal support has been
completely disabled even despite his crazed state of mind, or "warrior
intentions". I've always felt that the psychosis of these individuals
absolutely cannot change the physical laws of the universe.
3.
You mentioned Grandmaster Waysun Liao. I looked him up and he's
definitely within training distance for me. I know you don't want to
inadvertently slam one of your teachers, but is it possible for you to
tell me what I can expect and what areas of KCD he doesn't cover which
I'll have to fulfill during my own time? Of course if the Chicago area
had a KCD school I'd be there in a heartbeat but unfortunately that
isn't the case.
Thanks a million,
Ken
Re: Al Coangelo JP
The
answer to your first question can only be learned directly. Words
alone, no matter how eloquent fail in some matters. The answer to your
second question is obvious. Depending on the type of break only certain
movement is possible despite will power. The answer to your third
question is this. If Grand Master Liao chooses to accept you as a
student of Tai Chi Chuan you should be more than busy for the next 5
years or so just to work with him on the basics. Grand Master Liao is
about as far as a person can go to learn serious Tai Chi for combat. If
you are lucky enough to be able to train under him you should be
thankful. Most people never get close to a real teaching adept. Good
luck, JP
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similarities Ross Makoske
I
started reading the Book of Five Rings, and I was pleasantly surprised
at the similarities with Attack Proof. I recommend it for anyone
interested in martial arts. It is based on Musashi's swordsmanship
school, and the methods are similar to Attack Proof (sticking to the
opponent, being like water, striking from anywhere, fighting without
form, having a stance without a stance, never remaining static, using
all of your most effective weapons to prevent any regret, focusing not
on defense but fighting, focus on warfare). It goes to show that real
experienced fighters discover the same things, which transcend culture,
weaponry, and time period.
Re: similarities JP
Musashi
never studied in a school for fencing. Most of the 60 swordmasters he
killed were from recognized schools. Many of his duels were fought with
a wooden sword against his opponents' steel ones. How could this
happen???? How could an "unschooled" swordsman defeat a formaly trained
duelist???? What attributes do you think he would have needed???? Thank
you Ross for your information on Musashi. He is one of my favorite
literary/historic heroes. For anyone out there see the video Sword of
Doom. It is not about Musashi but the philosophy of the dark samurai
portrayed is interesting. Free thinking is not only possessed by the
good guys. I hope this post instigates some responses from some of you
out there. JP
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A LESSON TO US ALL... Major Al
The Fatal shooting of Alex Gong, a lesson to us all...
While this story is dated it is a sobering reminder
that confronting someone on the street is fraught with many dangers and highlights the difference in
mentality one must have when dealing with the street savvy criminal as opposed
to fighting in a sportive contest. I have summarized the original set of
articles posted to the "Kickboxing.com" website to highlight the key aspects of
this horrific incident. I present this information not for the purpose of
soiling the memory of the victim Alex Gong but to reinforce the importance of
maintaining you "situational awareness" even when enraged. This story while sad
also illustrates a few keys points for all of us to consider with regard to
self-defense:
1. The victim was obviously highly skilled in the martial arts and
probably in a "straight up" fight no doubt would have pummeled this guy to a
bloody pulp
2. He was well respected in the community and well loved for his
teaching and motivation and revered for is fighting prowess
3. The attacker obviously didn't care about any of the above and
only wanted to get away
4. Criminals are generally no "respecters of persons"
As stated over and again throughout our book "Attack Proof" it doesn't matter
who you are or what you know: if the enemy gets the drop on you you're done. Real
fights are hell-storms of mayhem, in which anything goes. Whereas sport /
tournament fighting is controlled, regimented and done in a manner in which it
is assumed that in large part some cooperation or rules will always be present.
Also, real attacks happen lighting fast and the strikes are delivered with
supernatural speed, which is why awareness is your first line of defense. If you
are not mentally prepared to deal with an attack on your life, or the reality of
what really happens during a violent confrontation to include the possibility of
being seriously injured, you are done.
Who knows perhaps had the shooter known whom he was dealing with, maybe he
wouldn't have shot him? But the fact is in the act of trying to escape he was
not interested in finding out. The "point" is, you just never know what another
person is going to do from one moment to the next in a real fight, and that's
the point! Having been the victim of a similar family tragedy I feel for the
family and friends of Alex Gong, I hope justice comes swiftly for him and his
family and so that his death is not in vain, let us all learn from this tragedy.
Major Al
*******************************************************
Fatal shooting of Alex Gong, a world champion Kick boxer in San Francisco
August 6, 2003
From Kickboxing.com
World champion Alex Gong, 30 a Thai-style kick boxer was shot to death in the
middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run
driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier. Gong was
pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street. Gong, who had
been working out at the South of Market training gym he runs at was wearing
yellow boxing gloves and boxing trunks when he was killed.
Alex Gong, a resident of San Francisco, was born and raised in New England, and
lived for a time in Central Asia before returning to the East Coast. He later
moved to California and graduated from San Francisco State University with a
degree in business.
Long interested in judo and tae kwon do, Gong discovered Muay Thai, a form of
kickboxing and the national sport of Thailand, in 1994. He once said in an
interview that he was drawn to the sport by the fluid movement and careful
balance it requires.
He had a natural affinity for the sport and racked up an impressive array of
championships in the middleweight and welterweight classes. He appeared
regularly on HBO and ESPN and headlined fights at the MGM Grand and the Mirage
in Las Vegas. He was a dedicated competitor who trained tirelessly, often waking
at dawn to run five miles and perform scores of sit-ups, push-ups and other
exercises before going to work.
San Francisco's CBS Channel 5 News reported, "according to investigators say
there was a minor traffic off 5th St. in the South of Market area, and that the
victim of the homicide apparently chased the suspect's car." Police are still
looking for the Jeep driver who shot and killed 32-year- old Alex Gong, a
Thai-style kick boxer and training gym operator, after an argument at Fifth and
Harrison streets about 4:30 p.m. Friday.
The gunman was described as a Caucasian between 155 and 165 pounds who was
driving a green Jeep Cherokee. The slaying came one day after San Francisco
Mayor Willie Brown and other officials announced the start of a campaign to
crack down on hit-and-run driving.
According to reports moments before the shooting, the driver had crashed into
Gong's car, parked on Clementina Street. Enraged, Gong gave chase on foot, going
a block east on Clementina, then a block and a half south on Fifth Street. At
that point, Gong confronted the driver, who had been forced to stop as traffic
backed up near the Bay Bridge on-ramp.
''The victim put his arm out to stop the driver, the driver pushed him back and
then shot him point blank," said Marilyn Moore, a witness who was riding in a
car on Fifth Street. "The victim grabbed himself and fell backward," she said.
"The driver backed up, put the car in drive and drove off. He turned right on
Harrison. "I just couldn't believe it, I've never seen nothing like that in my
life," Moore said.
Shortly before midnight Friday, Millbrae police Officer Matthew Erdozain found
the abandoned Jeep at a Chevron gas station at in Millbrae, said Millbrae police
Officer Aaron Treadway. The Jeep had been reported stolen in July in Pacifica
and was carrying a stolen license plate that belonged to San Francisco resident.
Other Eyewitness Accounts
Witnesses say the victim confronted the suspect. "It appears that it was a
traffic accident dispute," said Maria Oropeza of the San Francisco Police
Department. "The victim chased the suspect, and upon contact, the suspect shot
the victim."
A witness named Jason said, "He tried to confront the guy. We heard one pop, and
he fell to the ground."
Another witnesses said he was shot at point-blank range when he confronted the
driver, who apparently "waited" for a traffic signal to turn green before
opening fire and speeding away. They say after he shot Gong the driver sped away
towards the Bay Bridge but not before several of Gong's students caught the make
of the car and his license plate number. The students tried to revive Gong but
were obviously not successful.
Philip Tong, 43, a San Francisco cleaning contractor and former student at the
gym, said he happened to be driving by the intersection Friday night and saw a
Jeep driving erratically, followed soon afterward by "someone running down the
street, no shirt, no pants. I thought it was a street person."
Brian Lam, 26, an instructor at Fairtex, said, "As I was running up, I see Alex
arguing with the guy," Lam said. "The light turned green, the guy popped him. He
definitely waited for the light to turn green." Lam said a single bullet struck
Gong just above the heart. "I thought he was dead maybe 10 seconds after he was
shot," Lam said.
Eric Oetjen, 33, who had worked for Gong, described him Saturday as "a very
dynamic individual." "He was extremely passionate. He had a great amount of
integrity. He was a very giving person to a fault, and he will be missed,"
Oetjen said. Oetjen said Gong was not the kind of person to back down from a
fight. "He had no fear. He would have wanted to know, 'Why did you bang into my
car and leave?' "
"This is a sad day for martial arts." Said Scott Coker, (L) who was responsible
for much of Gong's publicized success as a fighter on the Strike Force Events in
San Jose, California shown on ESPN Worldwide. "He did so many great things for
Muay Thai and the martial arts community, keeping Muay Thai alive in America
through his spirit and his gym."
Memorial at the Gym
At the gym, more than 15 bouquets were fastened to the wire grating or propped
against the brick wall in Gong's memory, along with an assortment of candles
with religious inscriptions. The memorial was watched over by a group of
homeless men who sat against the wall, drinks in hand, and remembered the man
who was always willing to do something for them.
"We're drinking here because we lost a friend," said Daniel Mickey, 47. "He gave
us blankets, sheets, food. He even gave us money. He watched over us."
Messages from other friends were scrawled on paper signs that read, "Gym
Closed."
"Thank you for taking a stand. Sorry you paid the price," said a message signed
by Nate, a neighbor of two doors down.
"I understand your reasons and I still love you," an unsigned message said.
One placard showed Gong in a fighting stance, with a heart drawn around his
photo and the inscription, "Forever in our hearts." One of the homeless men
hoisted the placard high on the grating and refastened it, explaining, "He was a
champion."
Re: A LESSON TO US ALL... Ken
I
believe the shooter killed himself when the authorities caught up with
him. Alex very recently represented Muay Thai on TLC's top ten martial
arts and he was undoubtedly a skilled fighter. The irony is that I
believe that his skill level ultimately played a part in him chasing
the criminal down. Its is a reminder not to be wreckless with your
abilities. Use them on a must need basis only.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Re: Deep Punching Major Al
Andy,
There
is a thing in the martial arts called "cold power" or "cutting power"
[see Tai Chi Classics, by Master Wasun Liao] which is covered in Attack
Proof under "dropping strikes," and as always there is nothing mystical
about this skill. This is also referred to in Attack Proof as the
"Dempsey Drop" named after the great boxer Jack Dempsey who was a
master at this technique. Since the human body is about 80% water in
order to damage another person including their organs you must "splash"
the tissue as you strike this is accomplished by "dropping" you body on
your strikes. While dropping appears to be very similar to the infamous
Bruce Lee "once inch punch" it is a much more profound and effective
skill since it can be done from virtually any standing position as
opposed to a static position as in his demonstrations in which the
person stands still while you strike them. Heck, you can make anything
work if people stand there and let you do it. All dropping power is, is
subtle muscular control when striking another person. As you drop
straight down and catch yourself over your "root point" you want to
penetrate your opponent at the moment of impact so hard and fast that
their body does not have time to get out of the way, or is not able to
absorb and redirect the strike in time. For a more detailed explanation
please refer to Attack Proof.
Re: Deep Punching JP
Deep
punching is definitely not mysterious. The only difficult part is
practicing it from all angles and positions and at extreme speed.
Basically it is what Major Al referred to above. There is a viscious
type of punch or strike method which uses the dropping principle like a
double tap. Here you simply drop your weight into a strike and
penetrate as deep as possible and at the apex of entry into the body
you instantly drop again with the same strike only you now push it
deeper into the body. This takes a good amount of practice and you MUST
have your ligaments and tendons in good order to prevent injury to
yourself. It is done on the exhale as you strike pushing whatever
tissue or bone is under your weapon (fist, palm, elbow etc.}To practice
this you need a heavy bag that has a soft cover of foam around it. The
foam should be at least 4" thick. To practice you would stand in front
of the bag and push it forward with your striking weapon as far as
possible. On the return swing you would punch the bag as fast as you
can while dropping on your forward foot. (remember to wrap up your
wrist for punching) Next as you feel that you have penetrated as far as
possible you should still have some bend in your elbow for further
extension. You next drop both feet out from under you and catch as you
do in a forward foot drop step. You should feel as if only one strike
is occurring while your legs from your feet on up do all of the work.
The concept is simple the practice is tough. Remember not to cause the
bag to spin. You should hit it flush, right in the center. This will
insure that your striking power is maximized. Good luck, JP
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Food for thought
Food for thought Student
"It
is conceivable that a long time ago a certain martial artist discovered
some partial truth. During his lifetime, the man resisted the
temptation to organize this partial truth, although this is a common
tendency in man's search for security and certainty in life. After his
death, his students took 'his' hypothesis, 'his' postulates, 'his'
inclination, and 'his' method and turned them into law. Impressive
creeds were then invented, solemn reinforcing ceremonies prescribed,
rigid philosophies and patterns formulated, and so on, until finally an
institution was erected. So what originated as one man's intution of
some sort of personal fluidity was transformed into solidified, fixed
knowledge, complete with organized, classified responses presented in a
logical order. In so doing, the well-meaning, loyal followers not only
made this knowledge a holy shrine but also a tomb in which they buried
the founder's wisdom." (Bruce Lee)
Re: Food for thought JP
This
has always been the problem throughout the ages. Someone gets
inspiration and others want to follow. The basic problem has always
been that the founders didn't develop a methodology for the students to
discover how to create on their own. KCD provides this. The groundwork
for self discovery has been laid out. The drills and the philosophy
work to allow an individual to develop skills which allow a person to
react on a primary level. After learning some basic tools students can
flow with each other keeping in mind some rules. This at first seems
counterintuitive, but it is not. Polishing the sphere as freely as
possible, washing the body, and performing the single leg balance
drills allow the body to incorporate some of the natural skills that
the gifted fighters have. Learning and applying Guided Chaos(tm)can
only make a person become intuitive and eventually personally creative.
In essence the advanced practitioner can't help but express him/her
self freely like no other person can. This creative process can be seen
in split seconds of insight on a daily or weekly basis or extended over
long periods of time. Whether you keep your elbows up or down is not
the matter the only thing that matters is will a movement work at the
split second of exhistence. Only the practitioner who is there at that
time and space can experience this. Remember external reality based
stimulus is key to open clear response. Bruce Lee had the right
philosophy but did not live to teach how to learn total spontinaety.
One man's truth is not always best for another. Description of events
cannot be counted upon to learn the truth of the dance at the second of
manifestation for all individuals. You can, with a trained eye,
reconstruct a crime scene's events, but all events will change with the
introduction of any other protaganist or antagonist, not to mention any
subtle change in the physical area concerned. Alas I wax too
philosophically. Please meditate on this and see what you can come up
with as a response. Maybe through discourse some semblance of clear
flowing thought can come about. Thanx for your patience.JP
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Andy
Hi all
could someone please explain how you relax antagonistic muscles in say hammerfist strikes?
Andy
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Brian C.
Hi
Andy, I believe that with "any" strike, the key is targeted relaxation
until the point of contact. In the example of the hammer fist, while
you raise your fist up in preparation to strike, only your biceps,
deltoids, rotator cuff muscles and a few other stabalizing muscles
should be firing. Your triceps, lats, pecs, forearm, etc., should be
relaxed so that they are not "antagonistic" to the movement you are
attempting. At the apex of your rising, relaxed hammer fist, your
biceps and delts primarily should instantly relax while your lats,
pecs, triceps and associated stabilizing muscles kick in at full force
(unopposed). This along with gravity, dropping your weight, body unity,
proper breathing etc., will help to accomplish the goal of striking
with as much energy as you are capable of. Remember to ballistically
tense all of the muscles associated with the strike (too many to list)
at the point of contact and only for a split second (to free you up for
further movement). Practice slow until you can get a feel for when to
contract certain muscles and when to relax certain muscles. As you get
a feel for this, begin to increase your speed. The action of your arm
should be like a whip with your torso being the handle of the whip. My
apoligies to all members of KCD for the above comment, as I am not a
member of your organization, yet after reading "Attack Proof", I can
not help but to use some of your terminology, methods of explanation
and practices. I can't help it, they are truely the most direct and
most easily understood (with some practice) that I have come across.
Thanks, Brian Cunningham
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Matt Kovsky
One
major correction: the "handle" of the whip (and the source of all
dropping strikes) is NOT the torso, but the FEET and your rooted
connection with the ground. Limiting your untized body movement to the
torso is characteristic of many external arts and severely limits
power, body unity, balance, looseness and sensitivity. It is the
equivalent of trying to crack a whip by holding it in the middle.
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Brian C.
Thanks
for taking it even further Matt. You are obviously correct. I chose to
use the example of the torso being the handle of the whip as I thought
it was a given to all on this website that most everything starts at
the feet and your rooted connection to the ground. My mistake. I should
have furthered it by stating that it is the hips on down to one's
rooted feet (or vise versa) that initiates the cracking of the whip
with the torso being only one of the major components of the transfer
of energy out to the hand. I also chose the example of the torso as the
handle of the whip as it is the most proximal section of the body
related to the arm. I should have furthered my analogy by stating that
the rooted feet up to and including the waist could be likened to the
arm and hand holding the handle of the whip (the torso). This may have
made for a more technically correct analogy. However, I was merely
attempting to present a short, simple analogy covering a portion of
performing a hammer fist to help someone else further their exploration
of a technique, not to write the book about performing a hammer fist
(you guys have already done that, and its the best book out there). I
wanted to join in discussion with all of you by posting to your
excellant forum but I did not want to just take one of the extremely
thourough analogies out of your book and copy it to Andy. I have found
in life that sometimes it takes hearing a principle described in
several different ways before I or most others really "get it" and
sometimes it is not the most all inclusive description or analogy that
causes this event. I think your analogy is the best and most complete.
It further helped me to "get it". But the "feet rooted to the ground"
as being the handle of the whip might not be easily understood by
everyone. After all, analogies are only attempts at elluding to or
representing a level(s) of truth regarding a particular issue. An
analogy is only as effective as the communicator's access to and
ability to express the varying levels of truth about an issue and his
or her understandinding of and ability to adapt to the listeners level
of comprehension. Very rarely does one analogy speek to the totality of
truth regarding an issue in a way that all "get it" in the same way.
Also, I'd like to add that we can build upon each others comments
without tearing them down first. It only perpetuates that most common
of Martial Artist's traits (and most other authorities for that
matter), and that is, purvayors of the ultimate truth. There are too
many other forums out there dedicated to that. Let me end by restating
some things that I have already e-mailed to Attack Proof. It is the
best book that I have ever read on the Martial Arts and like any great
book, it presents many levels of insight and understanding as to
provide something significant for all who read it. Starting with John
Perkins, your organization is poised to positively and significantly
impact the martial arts community and all with the ears and eyes with
which to recieve your message. I look forward to further studying and
practicing your methods while bennefiting from the excellant, much
needed material that KCD produces. Thanks again, Brian
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles John Perkins
Thank
you Brian for your response. I want anyone who is involved with this
forum to feel that they are not under a microscope. If myself or Matt
or Maj. Al wish to give a slight bit of clarification on a subject
please know it is done with only the most highly thought out
intentions. Once again thanks for your in depth answer to Andy. Keep up
the good work. JP
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Brian
Thank you for your clarification and encouragement JP. Brian
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
KCD's Anti Shoot Methods
KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
Could someone help me to understand more clearly how KCD handles a wrestler's shoot?
For
some reason the idea of eye gouging is somewhat illusive to me because
I've seen tapes where a grappler has had NO RULES and the non-grappler
attempted this method unsuccessfully. The natural human reflex is to
pull the head back and flinch when something is moving rapidly towards
the eye and a good combat grappler would know to protect his eyes by
tucking his head. If you look at any of the Rickson Gracie fights, when
he wants to go to the ground, he'll wrap himself almost skin tight
against his attacker in the clinch position while protecting his head
and driving backwards until the attacker's back either bends and he
falls due to the loss of balance or he simply trips over Gracie's legs
while being pushed backwards. In almost every case you'll see the
attacker going after Gracie's head but it happens so fast that the
fighter is on his back before any damage is done. I've learned and
extensively practiced methods that are highly successful against these
types of attacks but the problem is that I have to go to the ground and
I'd greatly prefer not to do so. Any help with clarity on this issue
would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
You
have apparently fell for the basic problem most people fall into when
dealing with observing fighting. The first thing to consider is are you
fighting for your life. I have seen some of the earlier tapes of Gracie
fights. In one fight in particular one of the Gracies used a knuckle
poke to his opponent's eye to break a hold. Was that legal? They did
not stop the fight for it. The hold was easily broken. Second You may
land on the ground if you are fighting one person who tackles your
legs. Here is where KCD ground fighting technique is important to know.
I presently work with serious shoot fighters who want to know how not
to loose their eyes in a real fight. If they stick to basic punches and
elbow strikes while trying to hold onto me or Major Al or Tom Barnett
or Mike Watson etc. they can easily loose the use of their eyes let
alone their life by having a finger dug deep into the brain. The study
of KCD utilizes eye gouging for life and death encounters. If anyone
believes that he can keep a trained eye gouger from putting their
lights out they are sadly mistaken. Here is the funny part. According
to the rules of UFC it is OK to strangle your opponent. This on the
street would be grounds to kill in self defense. Anyone who tries to
choke you is applying potentially deadly force. The practice of putting
fingers through eye sockets is important for this purpose. Also the
crushing of testicles is practiced to a high degree so as to allow
instant access to other targets. Crushing of the windpipe is another
technique which is practiced at high speed with proper equipment. Yes
you may have to go to the ground during a real fight but you should
know how to apply the most devastating methods of self defense to
survive. You should not get involved with grappling your way out of a
grapplers grasp. I have worked extensively with many grapplers over the
years and have not found one who could keep his eyes protected and his
groin and throat protected effectively. Most times when I or my fellow
KCD practitioners have worked with the ground fighting men they would
act as if they were not tagged in the eyes and keep on fighting. I have
the ability to keep from causing permanent injury during practice with
grapplers. I use food dye on my finger tips to mark their eyelids
during the grapple. If they don't acknowledge the gouge my next attack
is to the groin where thy can feel the force. If they get further out
of hand during practice a good squeeze and twist brings them around to
reality. Seldom do I have to go that far to prove a point. If you do
not know how to apply a proper eye gouge or other forms of mayhem you
should attend a class given by myself or one of the advanced
instructors. I am not at liberty to give the names of my shoot/ground
fighting students because they do not want to have a problem with the
various schools they attend. Some ,however, are willing to demonstrate
on other ground fighters in person. Remember that many serious fights
involve weapons. If you are attacked on the street by thugs who want to
take you to the ground and stab you you must fight like a serious
combat war veteran. Anything goes. Basic grappling will only get you
killed under these conditions. I am not in all conscience able to put
the most devastating methods for ground killing on tape. I simply will
not let this information out to the public at large. If you are a
military member of the United States and can prove that you are in an
active high risk position I and/or Major Ridenhour will teach these
techniques and principles to you. If you are a member of a high risk
Law Enforcement group the same goes for you. All others do not need
this information. There are interim methods that will serve you well
enough. I apologize to all who feel that this is too discriminatory but
that is all I can do. There are also many "anti-shoot" methods which do
not call for extreme mayhem but I am not in the business of sport
fighting. I hope that this helps you. Remember I cordially invite
anyone who is an accomplished fighter who has a good attitude and respect
to contact me personally at attack@attackproof.com to work anything out
physically. All these events will be video taped and proper releases
must be signed beforehand. This is not a challenge. It is only for the
gentlemanly exchange of knowlege. Sincerely, JP
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
Thanks
for the response. I have yet to get a lackluster answer from you
concerning any of the questions I've raised. John, you can make
fortunes. There are scores and scores of Martial Artists in dojos,
basements and backyards that claim they'll do this and that to a
grappler when there are no rules. They always talk about how they'll
eye gouge and break fingers, etc. However, when it hits the fan, all of
their deadly maneuvers seem to go out of the window. For example, a San
Soo person issued a no rules challenge to any fighter and a Brazilian
Ju Jitsu fighter accepted the challenge and easily beat him with an
Americana armbar. The San Soo person spoke on how grappling is
ineffective because you can always apply finger locks, etc.. He later
said the Ju Jitsu fighter, John Marsh was too strong. Now, thats not
the moral of the story. There were other, higher ranked San Soo people
who crosstrained in Brazilian Ju Jitsu that admitted that they would
have lost also. In other words, they were admitting that their no-rules
tactics which are taught in San Soo would not work against a trained
grappler in the street.
In your case, you've actually
went to the mat with people who I would suppose are highly skilled
grapplers and proven that you can have your way with them without
playing the game. Well, when most people get into martial arts, they're
really only looking for what KCD offers but get sidetracked when they
think it may not exist. So they look into the next best thing, stuff
like mixed martial arts, which have proven(even though in competitive,
non life and death affairs) that they can be effective. If you were to
put a clip on this site of you demonstrating on a skilled grappler in
real time you would send some shockwaves through a lot of people,
especially in the Martial Arts community. I talk to these guys all the
time and they rarely believe that simple tactics like eye gouges, groin
attacks, etc, would ever work. In fact I didn't even believe it myself.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
The
proof is in the pudding. One situation in which an eye gouge came in
handy was where I and my radio car partner were caught in a deadly
fight with multiple assailants on a stairway in a housing project.
While I was fending off an attacker who was high on angel dust and
fighting from a step above me I was simultaneously trying to keep my
partner from getting stabbed by another assailant who was basically on
the same step with me. This was a dynamic and chaotic situation. While
I kept pressing my hip against the lower attacker's knife hand who was
engaged with my partner I realized that I could not reach my handgun in
time. So while keeping the upper attacker off balance with my left hand
I was able to get my right hand pinkie finger into the right eye of the
lower assailant. I did not grapple with these men because on the above
landing some extra drug users were on their way down to help them out.
As I pushed my pinkie into the slime ball's eye and sunk it to the
second knuckle he suddenly went into convulsions. As he fell down I was
able to step to my left and pull the upper guy down and allow him to
land almost head first on the landing below. This allowed myself and my
partner to access our handguns which caused the above bad guys to leave
quickly. Thank luck they didn't start shooting. We were lucky that the
extra drug punks hesitated. I believe that if they moved foward or
descended further that we would have fired in self defense. I found out
later from one of my eye surgeon friends that my pinkie must have hit a
nerve that runs behind the nose on the inner side of the eye which
effects the heart's rhythm. I, at first thought that I had somehow hit
the attacker's brain. The point to this long story is that grappling on
a stairway with multiple attackers with weapons is a no win situation.
Most of the real life and death battles on the street or on the
battlefield will kill you if you get caught up trying to wrestle with
one guy at a time. Remember--- you never know what the bad guys are
bringing to the party. The bad guy who wants to grapple with a cop or
soldier has to remember that most law enforcement, military or
defensive minded people will have some sort of weapon at hand. Just a
pair of hard soled shoes can be formidable if you know how to apply
your feet properly. The botton line is this. A contest without rules
whatsoever is war. Anyone who attacks you on the street with intent to
kill you will use anything to win. This includes not only weapons but
his buddies. You will not have judges around. If you are challenged to
a street brawl where someone suggests that there are no rules then tell
him to meet you at your house and see what surprise he can receive. The
B.S. macho bravado that comes from young morons is not to be given any
play. If they wish to attack in a felonious manner then they better
have God on their side just in case they run up against a real warrior.
This is just some sage advice from an old man who has had too many
trips to the morgue. Enough said. Take care, JP
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
HIT AND BEING HIT
HIT AND BEING HIT JOHN PERKINS
THIS
IS A QUESTION POSED BY ONE OF MY STUDENTS WHO IS PRESENTLY STUDYING
SYSTEMA. IT INVOLVES THE IDEA OF SOMEONE ACTUALLY STRIKING YOU FOR THE
PURPOSE OF TOUGHENING YOUR BODY. DURING THE STUDY OF MEDIUM SPEED OR
HIGH SPEED CONTACT FLOW ANYONE WHO IS WORKING PROPERLY WILL EXPERIENCE
BEING HIT QUITE OFTEN. IF YOU HAVE BEEN PRACTICING PROPERLY THE PROCESS
OF ABSORBING BLOWS WILL ENABLE YOU DEAL WITH EVEN THE MOST ADVANCED
FIGHTERS EVENTUALLY. JUST STANDING THERE AND ALLOWING SOMEONE TO HIT
YOU FOR THE PURPOSE OF SUPPOSEDLY GETTING TOUGHER IS NOT HEALTHY. I
HAVE EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE WITH MANY MARTIAL ARTS WHICH DEAL WITH TAKING
HITS. NONE OF THEM CAN WITHSTAND ANY SERIOUSLY APPLIED STRIKES FROM AN
ADVANCED KCD PRACTITIONER. I WORK WITH UFC FIGHTERS AND PROFESSIONAL
BOXERS. THE UFC FIGHTERS HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SYSTEMA, TAI
CHI, BOXING AND EVERY OTHER TYPE OF MARTIAL ARTIST AND HAVE FOUND THAT
THEY CAN HANDLE ALL OF THEIR BLOWS. IN A COUPLE OF BOUTS ONE OF THE UFC
FIGHTERS WHO WEIGHS ABOUT 240 POUNDS AND WAS ALSO A PRO BOXER WAS ABLE
TO USE HIS STRIKING EFFECTIVELY AGAINST SOME UFC FIGHTERS. THIS IS NO
LONGER THE CASE. DID THE UFC GUYS GET TOUGHER. NO-----THEY LEARNED TO
BE MORE ELUSIVE. I PRESENTLY TRAIN SOME SHOOT/UFC FIGHTERS WHO HAVE HAD
NO PROBLEM DEALING WITH MOST STRIKES. THEY CANNOT DEAL WITH BEING
STRUCK BY MASTER TIM, MASTER BARNETT, MASTER AL, MIKE WATSON, OR MANY
OF THE ADVANCED KCD MEMBERS. STANDING IN FRONT OF SOMEONE WHO IS DROP
HITTING YOU AT HIGH SPEED WILL ONLY CAUSE YOU INTERNAL DAMAGE OR WORSE.
YES-- YOU CAN GET USED TO GLANCING BLOWS BY PRACTICING. IF YOU ARE NOT
ADVANCED IN KCD YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH TO GIVE ADVICE TO OTHER NOVICES.
PLEASE BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ADVISE. I, AND THE MASTER INSTRUCTORS KNOW
HOW TO GET THRU TO PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE ABLE TO ABSORB BLOWS. LEARNING
TO ABSORB REAL STRIKES, NOT SET UP STRIKES IS NO JOKE. DO NOT BE FOOLED
BY (FAKIR) TRICKS. IF ANYONE FEELS A NEED TO BE HIT YOU CAN GET A
LESSON WITH MASTER TIM CARRON WHO WILL TAKE YOU TO THE EDGE OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND PAIN WITHOUT PERMANENT DAMAGE. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO
RISK MORE, SUCH AS BROKEN RIBS ETC. MASTER BARNETT WILL OBLIGE YOU.
PLEASE BE CAREFUL OUT THERE. SEE MY OTHER ANSWER IN THE PHILOSOPHY
SECTION ON BEING HIT. GOOD LUCK, MOTHER HEN
Re: HIT AND BEING HIT Rob Green
I
believe there is a misunderstanding of the use of recieving blows in
Systema that was stated by your student 'who is now studying Systema' -
the purpose is not to toughen the participant. I would refer anyone
interested in Systemas use of hits and tempering to the article behind
this link:
http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2234&start=15
Written by one of Vladimirs senior students. There is much misunderstanding of this subject.
If
I may quote: "IF YOU ARE NOT ADVANCED IN KCD YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH TO
GIVE ADVICE TO OTHER NOVICES". I agree that it takes real experience in
any particular art before one can advise anyone else. Further, I would
avoid commenting on any individual in a martial art, or any statements
attributed to them, if I did not have first hand knowledge of the
circumstances - if I did not see it with my own eyes. Maybe thats just
me but my experience has shown how easily misunderstandings can happen
and there is little to gain.
KCD seems to be an effective
methodology - this statement based on my small experience with a few
members who train in the method, viewing the fundamentals tape and the
respectful commentary I heard myself from Systema practitioners.
Perhaps I will be able to experience it myself in the future.
That way, I will be better able to judge the merits of the method for myself.
Re: HIT AND BEING HIT John Perkins
Mea
culpa, I must apologize to Alan for my somewhat drakonian reply to his
reply to another student. I have that dysfunction called protectivitis.
Many friends that I have known have passed on because of lack of
knowledge. This may blind me to the learning process that we all go
through. I realize that most of the civilian students are not about to
go out into the streets or the battlefield to fight against the dragon.
Most likely most of you studying KCD or other martial arts won't come
up against a serious, malicious and capable opponent(s). My view of the
world is probably tainted by too many memories. I will, in the future,
try to tone down the level of teaching for those who are not
immediately going into harm's way. For those of you who have seen the
elephant the intensity will still be there. I know that you will not
accept less. Thank you all for your patience. John
Re: HIT AND BEING HIT Rob Green
I
understand your passion, sir. I have been slaying the dragons for 18
years now (Rikers Island/NYC Dept, of Corrections) along with other
'interesting' work. Along 'the way' - I also have lost friends and
compatriots to the cold wind, some because they relied upon
methodologies that were not suited for the task of survival - be it
physical, mental or spiritual. I also carry with me the memory of "What
if I could have..." to help one who later was lost. I have been riding
the tiger (studying Martial arts/combatives) for 40 years and have
probably had many experiences that you could relate to.
You are
excused, of course, for any display of protectivitis - KCD is your
'baby', and I am certain that you, like I, regard the relationship you
have with those that study with you as a sacred trust - and not the
superficial drek that is proffered by the recreationalists, dabblers
and outright con men that have done such dishonor and dis-service to
the warrior ways.
It is said that there are many paths to the
top of the mountain - that may be true. Some are winding, some direct -
some are false trails though, leading nowhere. As one arrives to the
top of the mountain, though, the successful roads merge and meet in a
common place. That place is where the warriors meet, share knowledge
and experiences and come to be friends.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
KCD changed my life
KCD changed my life Dennis Raffa
Hi
Master John. I just wanted to tell how KCD changed my life. I have been
working with Master Tim for the past 3 years. When I first started my
balance was terrible. My balance now has improved 100 percent. Through
Master Tim's dedication I am able to do things that I never thought I
would be able to do. His knowledge and expert teachiing has brought me
to a level I thought would have been impossible. I have increased my
sensitivity, balance and overall ability. My life has changed so much
for the better. Through working on the ladder and other balance
exercises I am now able to live a more normal life. These are some of
the things you have taught to Master Tim. So I owe you and Master Tim
so much. This is proof that people with disabilities can achieve
anything with the right people leading them. I plan to continue to work
to improve an achieve even more than I already have. I will be doing
this for the rest of my life. Thanks again. I wish you and Master Tim
all the best.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Carl
Hey Ken, I would have simply replied to you post, but I wanted to put this up as new so more people would be incined to read it
"Could someone help me to understand more clearly how KCD handles a wrestler's shoot?
For
some reason the idea of eye gouging is somewhat illusive to me because
I've seen tapes where a grappler has had NO RULES and the non-grappler
attempted this method unsuccessfully. The natural human reflex is to
pull the head back and flinch when something is moving rapidly towards
the eye and a good combat grappler would know to protect his eyes by
tucking his head. If you look at any of the Rickson Gracie fights, when
he wants to go to the ground, he'll wrap himself almost skin tight
against his attacker in the clinch position while protecting his head
and driving backwards until the attacker's back either bends and he
falls due to the loss of balance or he simply trips over Gracie's legs
while being pushed backwards. In almost every case you'll see the
attacker going after Gracie's head but it happens so fast that the
fighter is on his back before any damage is done."
I
have a bit of input I'd like to share on the subject. Putting someone's
eyes out or digging into them, is a bit of a skill in itself if you ask
me. To a degree, it has to be practiced,perfected, and really, it is
not just an infallible tactic. There were two situations in my life
where fingers to the eyes were involved. The first one, a long time
ago, involved someone putting me in a headlock and actually trying to
put one of my eyes out with their keys. He didn't get away with it, as
I was able to punch and outwrestle my way out his grasp. In that
situation, I simply had to rely on other weapons to handle it- but man,
I fought for my life to escape that key! As a result "grappling" plus
"striking" was beaten by "striking" that day, and both of us were
relatively untrained.
The second situation involved yours truly
putting his fingers into the head of a very,very big, drunk, and angry
(for no reason) guy. I literally pinned his head to the wall with my
fingers, but his pain threshold must have been so high, because he was
still able to punch me. I was still able to keep digging into the guy's
head, but I had a nice bump on my cheek the next day! What does that
tell me? Well, for one thing, It would've been better if I had the guys
weapons (hands) at the "outside gate" (see various chinese Kung Fu
books for a description of this) of me and unable to counter strike.
Although the idea of hitting someone is easy, you've gotta up the
realism in training in order to make it work in the real world, ie roll
hands practice. Just remember- it's a simple concept that someone can
get killed by a car, but a lot of people get hit by them dead on and
still survive soemehow.
As for those Rickson Gracie fights,
well, just the fact that the man KNOWS to explosively leap on his
opponent, keep his head down, and stick onto his opponent (does anyone
else smell a bit of mastered sensitivity in this scenario?) tells you
that eye gouging is in fact a dangerous reality, and the man has
obviously trained in a way to avoid this. True, he is a master at
avoiding getting his eyes torn out, but he apparently had to work to
stop this from happening. This "work" still had given his opponent the
momentary advantage, but hey, Rickson Gracie isn't a world champion for
nothing.
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
#1
I would imagine that if you pinned a guy to the wall by pushing into
his eyes and you did not push your fingers deep into his brain that it
was not a fight for real. In other words you were not fighting for your
life. If you just press on someone's eyes who is under the influence of
a drug such as alchohol you may, if you are careful enough, not cut his
corneas with your fingernails and he may not stop due to pain. If you
push your fingers deep into his eye sockets you could crush his eyes or
if you push further you could penetrate the egg shell thin bone that
holds the eye in place and keeps the liquid that surrounds the brain
from leaking out. This usually results in some form of incapacitation
or death. Yes someone could fight really fast as I have done in the
past to protect my eyes. This does not, however, mean that people are
going to easily survive a serious eye gouge. Using an eye gouge is
potentially deadly. A man was killed while fighting his enraged and
insane son while they struggled in the middle of the road on Riverdale
Ave. in Yonkers, N.Y. The psychotic son pushed his fingers into his
father's eyes and down into his brain. Immediate death ensued. Not too
many people have fought very well after they had their wind pipes
crushed either. Even the drug crazed go down when this happens to them.
My point is this. You can choose to train in any method of fighting but
you should know and accept the limitations of any of them. Obviously if
a large, strong, fast, well trained man fights with another who is not
as large, strong, and fast he will have great advantage over the weaker
one. If both are fighting for real as in war then he who gets in the
killing strike or neck break in first usually wins. If you are weaker
and your opponent is stronger but the stronger insists on using only
particular techniques that give him the distinct advantage during a
structured bout and you, the weaker person, through no fault of your
own must fight for your life, I suggest that you should do all you can
to survive. Now if you are entirely not prepared to fight by not
training in some form of mayhem producing methodology then you more
than likely will fail. Even if you are a professional grappler and a
very small man decides to cancel your ticket for real all the grappling
practice in the world will not help you. KCD is a warfighting art. This
means that you will learn how to create maximum damage to a target as
fast as possible. You will learn how to use actual and impromptu
weapons of any kind. You will learn how to best actualize your maximum
potential to do serious and, if necessary, deadly damage to the
attacking enemy. To limit yourself to simply grappling is rediculous.
If you knew that a much stronger man was going to try to choke you to
death would you not use a weapon? Can a man practice grappling and
striking well enough to defend himself against a strong, healthy, fast
and armed opponent? The answer is always with fate. Remember that luck
usually favors the prepared man. Does anyone wonder why eye gouging,
fish hooking, kicking with footwear to the head, throat strikes, full
chin jabs, etc. are not allowed in sportfighting? Because if one
fighter uses these techniques he will have an unfair advantage over the
other while the rules are in use. Yes I have prevented an expert eye
gouger from getting me in the eyes during a fight but I expected
anything and did the unexpected immediately. If you are on a plane and
it is taken over by knife wielding monsters do you try to grapple with
them? You will employ any make shift weapon at hand. You will also
allow some other passengers to help. You wouldn't expect to just fight
by the rules of the ring. Heck the bad guy may not even know how to tap
out. Anyone can point out the one time out of a thousand when a bullet
hit someone in the brain and did not kill that person. Does this mean
that you could take a chance with a gunman. Remember, the fights in
Valle Tudo are not to the death. The unwritten rules of Machismo are
always in full force. If you defeat your opponent by tearing off his
testicles or crushing his wind pipe you have breached the rules and if
you win you lose as a man. If a person, such as myself, makes it a
profession to teach and in real life apply deadly techniques don't you
think, just as in the case of the professional grappler that he would
know that people will try anything not to get their eyes removed or
their brain pierced. Remember and study the rules of guided chaos. The
underground name of Ki chuan do is May hem do. I hope that this has
stimulated your imagination sufficienty to maybe get real folks and
stop the macho stuff. Remember to walk softly and carry a big stick,
knife, gun, hatchet, ice pick, pepper spray, rocket launcher with
rocket, invisible friend. Just joking about the stick. Take care, JP
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Carl
Hey John,
In
regards to the second situation mentioned above, I have to concede that
I was NOT trying to kill the guy in question. This all happened at a
bar that I and Ray used to work at, where my "strategy" that night
involved shoving the much bigger man's face and then digging (or
clawing, now that I think of it) into the eyes to "hold" him up against
the wall, so I can shove him out the nearby door. Overall it worked,
but not without a lot of ugliness. Perhaps that says that there is a
psychological/social componant that will limit the effectiveness of any
martial art technique.
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
I
believe Rickson Gracie was undefeated in over 300 ring fights at the
time. I'm no fan of the Gracie methodology but they released a tape of
them fighting no rules against martial artists and other fighters on
the beaches of Brazil and the eye gouging from the other fighters was
easily nullified through superior positioning on the Gracie's part.
What I mean by that is that they never gave the attacker the structure
to really dig in because they were either moving too fast or they were
driving through the attacker, thus upsetting his balance. Or, they
would have the attacker tied up in such a way that by the time an eye
gouge was attempted, it was too late. The submission hold was already
in place. Of course none of these fighters were skilled in sensitivity,
looseness, balance or body unity or they probably wouldn't have ended
up in those positions in the first place. For one thing, they became
fixated on utilizing that one method and it ultimately caused them to
fail. KCD, is more flexible in that the Contact Flow would have you in
the mindset to take whats available in a flowing method.
I
can think of two grappling matches in particular where I know eye
gouging or dirty tactics were probably nullified by the non-grappler
himself simply because of their approaches.
The first
fight which I thought was interesting, though an obvious exception was
a time when Frank Shamrock slipped while backpedalling in a fight and
naturally went into a duck walk/knee drop position. His attacker was
trying to offensively close the distance and this ultimately lead to
his defeat. From the lower position, Frank Shamrock tied the guys legs
up and literally shot almost vertically in the air slamming and landing
directly on top of the guy. The guy was knocked out instantly upon
hitting his head on the canvas and to add insult to injury, Frank
Shamrock chopped the guys collar bone and broke it while he was KO'd.
This all happened in no less than 4 seconds. That one particular day,
Shamrock just wasn't going to lose.
The second was when
a Kung Fu San Soo Marine trainer at 140 lbs. fought a no rules fight
against a 235 pound grappler by the name of John Marsh for $5000. The
San Soo man offensively shot towards the grappler at nearly sprinting
speed from about 4 feet away and the grappler never moved. He waited
until the San Soo guy was close, swept his legs and basically landed
directly on top of the guy by tackling him. I remember looking at some
still shots and at one point they were both in vertical positions about
2 feet above the ground before the grappler landed on the San Soo guy,
basically slamming the side of his head hard on the floor. This is all
happened in about a second and a half. Of course I'm sure it took
countless ice packs to calm the swelling. From there John Marsh
basically went from cross-body positioning to top body hold/lateral
press and back. The poor Kung Fu guy never had a chance to attack the
groin, eyes or even throat.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Carl
Hey Ken,
I
agree that most of the opponents that go up against the Gracies and
their like probably don't undergo a lot, if any, sensitivity, looseness
and balance training- but I can't really know for sure. The funny thing
is is that nobody seems to realize or aknowledge that a fair amout of
practice wrestling WILL yield some sensititiviy training. Long before I
had started training in KCD, I had done some Judo. We did a lot of
randori (stand up and kneeling free form wrestling practice), and the
first thing that all the head guys told me to do was really relax and
be loose. Unfortunatly, stating this was the most sensitivity was
talked about in class, and apparently the only ones who had gotten the
sensitivity and looseness thing down where the head sensei's sons and
senior students, all who had had quite a bit of constant training. Back
then, I didn't grasp the concept of sensitivity, because even though it
was grasped on an unconciouss level by the seniors, it was never really
spoken about or even conceptualized by the head sensei and his senior
students.
I have a theory that guys like Shamrock, Ortiz, and
the Gracies ACTUALLY DO HAVE a lot of sensitivity, awareness, and
looseness, but it is because they have done what they've do for so long
that it is all a relaxed, supple game to their nervous systems. Any of
the Gracies will tell you that they've been doing their thing since
being in diapers, so by now they are unbelievably sensitive, even
without being able to aknowledge what "sensitivity" is. When you apply
this sensititvity to explosive action (most of these guys do a lot of
plyometric and ballistic weight work), it is no wonder that a 250 plus
guys can easily slam an unknowing San Soo guy. For the record, unless
the San Soo guy did regular flow-hands type work of his own, it is a
sure bet that the "Grappler" in question had a whole lot more
sensitivity training in his pocket. All this evidence at the least
furthers the argument that it is not the "style", but the fighter and
his training. Al, if your reading this, maybe you can comment?
BY COINCIDENCE ALONE....... Carl
Just
as we're discussing the validity of eye gouging, I happen to spot a
post from a fitness forum (dragondoor.com) that I read from on boring,
rainy days. It just adds fuel to the fire. Enjoy.
Comrades
and fellow martial artists...I learned a valuable self defense lesson
this morning. I live on Long Island and while driving to work I had
this guy breaking and stopping breaking and stopping.....all the while
he's waving his hands..We come to a light and he races out of his
car..my first reaction was to get out of mine..he starts screaming
about getting to close blah blah blah..now I'm thinking..I'm getting
married next Sunday..don't get into a brawl..sure enough..he takes a
swing...right hand to my head..I moved and used an eye gouge with my
left hand.and just caught him...Well he went down right to his knees in
an instant..stayed there..then got up and went back to his car..I
jetted right after that...he just stayed there..So comrades..Just want
to let you know..this technique does work..may not put a guy out
completly..but it can give you a bit of time...So now..my mug is a
pretty as ever..Thanks..Phil
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
Great
points about the Gracies, Shamrocks and Ortiz's of the world having
high sensitivity. Once grappling contact is made, they can actually
fight you with their eyes closed. I know this is definitely true for
the Gracies. Currently, I think the Gracies are outclassed because the
current UFC fighters are much stronger, bigger, faster and have the
same ground skills. That being the case, when I saw Sakuraba (Japanese
wrestler), beat two different Gracies with a rudimentary version of
relaxation, I knew that there was definitely something huge in the
concept. He treated them like children.
I actually
started this post to get some specific examples of how this situation
was handled. That being the case, I'll give an example of a way that I
was taught from previous training. I was taught to never resist when
someone grabbed me as that would give them structure which enables them
to apply some sort of leverage, even if only to pull you somewhere.
This concept extended to tackles and even sweeps. For example, in the
description that I gave of Rickson locking onto the fighter and driving
forward, the victim's own resistance actually gives structure for him
to tie up and fall down, allowing Rickson to get the mount. We were
taught to simply relax, go with the push while holding on to the
attacker and simply rotate in the direction where the force is applied.
The result is that you will always be in an advantageous position upon
landing where you can break the neck or simply forearm strike the
neck/vagus to knock out the attacker as you'll land in a perfect
position to do this. All great and very simple concepts by the way.
The
problem I had was that we had no intentional sensitivity training which
will literally place you miles ahead of someone without it. Also, it
was entirely too cooperative because they incorrectly assume that one
good kinetic driving strike will guarantee that you'll at least take
your attacker off balance. Hence, the drills consisted of you simply
manipulating a non resisting, but reacting(who simulates autonomic
responses) attacker with further kinetic, driving strikes to simulate
the possibility of you missing your targets. The assumption is that if
you get nearly chest to chest, your attacker won't be able to defend
himself because his limbs will be jammed. The whole idea is to create
so much chaos that a fighter using any level of defensive strategy will
simply be overwhelmed. They'll be fine so long as they never run into
someone that understands concepts like, pocketing, folding, etc., all
while managing to continue with their own striking in the midst of the
chaos. The strange thing is that I've seen some of the higher
instructors do techniques where they would flow with a strike and then
attack but they decided not to teach that method as they feared that it
would take away from the offensive nature of the system. They are
wrong. Contact Flow is hands down the best drill I've seen to teach
someone fighting skills.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
Just
when you thought it was safe to go out into the chaos now comes the
real nitty gritty. REMEMBER folks, all of this going on about
sensitivity is important. It is not ultimately developed for the
grappling fight as much as for the real killer. I will say this many
times before most of you will wish to accept it. A real attack is
sudden from nowhere without much preamble. You may feel the set up
comming from one or more attackers if you are lucky and are paying
attention. Anything that resembles a duel which is an agreed upon fight
with a starting time and some rules is not the same. To deal with the
explosive viscious armed or unarmed attack you must be trained in
warfighting concepts. You must know how to explode into an attack as
well as evade. It is imperative that you receive neuronic training. The
actual psycho/physical changes that you will experience such as
auditory, visual confusion, time and space consciousness variations and
a host of other phenomena will be all part of a real world attack.
Grappling is only a small fraction of the knowledge and skill you will
need to survive. Just the basics of eye thrusts can take months to
master. So you think that grappling on the level of professional
grapplers takes just a minute or two to learn? How to avoid being
stabbed to death is an art in itself. I don't know how to get this
concept to you. Maybe something that Major Al said in one of our
classes will help. He stated that all of the moves and concepts and
principles of KCD are geared to killing your attacker. Even when you
flow and absorb the strike or grab of an opponent you are merely
setting up to allow yourself the ability to kill your enemy. An evasion
is only a split second away from a return which can contain a crushing
blow to the throat, eyes, testicles or any other target. You can always
gear down but it is difficult to gear up once a fight begins. I will
elaborate further. Your return or your pre-emptive attack will include
multiple strikes from multiple angles including verticle horizontal, in
fact, any angle you could find inside a sphere. This is wheather you
are right side up or upside down or turning someone inside out. Do not
limit your mind to the hypnosis of the UFC model. If a trained close
combat fighter decided to punch a ballpoint pen into some part of
someone's anatomy he would not give him fair warning. Most likely as is
true in over 95% of knife fights the victim does not know that he is
being stabbed or even cut before it is too late. I am not as worried
about a professional sportsman who has dedicated years of training in
the ring compared with the prison trained professional attacker who
wants to kill me. A true sportsman doesn't usually go around choking
innocent victims on the street. Even if he did he would then be obliged
to possibly face a not so innocent victim. He may face the trained
combat fighter who just might be holding onto his ball point pen and
has the skill to slam it into the vitals of a crazed attacker
instantly. REMEMBER----who is attacking/defending and what
tricks/weapons are they bringing to the party and how many friends have
been invited and what is the address of the invitation? I hope this
sinks in and then we can have a real world discussion of what works for
survival. Never bring a knife to a gun fight and never just punch and
grapple with a serious trained killer. You will most likely have no
warning of a serious attack in the form of an announcer in a ring. Good
luck, JP
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Taking the initiative Virgil
I
don't know if I'm allowed to post a new message but I couldn't find the
rules and regs section anywhere, so I'll post it and you guys can set
me straight later. My question has to do with taking the initiative and
I'd like to ask it by relating an experience. I'm sure this has been
covered many times already, but it is a question that is unanswered in
my mind. To make a long story short, I had just had a training day with
Kajukenbo and Jack Daniels and found myself coming out of a daze in a
subway car that was halted between stations. I looked around and found
to my unhappiness that I was alone in the car with three gentlemen who
were breaking the windows, tearing down the ad posters, kicking the
doors and beating up the car itself. Then they were sitting across from
me and a kind of "stare down" took place. I could hear them muttering
stuff about cutting my throat and taking me down now. I sat there, not
moving a muscle except to blink my eyes to try to quickly and quiety
snap out of the daze I was in. I was sensing something bad and had
snapped open my cqc7 in my jacket pocket. Needless to say I was scared
and my adren was pumping out max. Then one of the men got up and came
towards me and he was about 3 inches from my face leaning over me.
Every part of my nervous system was screaming plunge that knife into
his gut and hop on the other two before they could get up. I had so
much adren pumping that my hand was set to go out on it's own. But for
some reason my brain overrode and I held back. Next thing that happened
the guy looked up at the subway map behind me,laughed and walked away.
Now if I had taken the initiative there would be at least one person
with a serious gut wound and i would have found myself explaining to
the authorities why I was carrying a concealed knife and plunging it
into people. On the other hand, if it hadn't been a fake out I could
have used every bit of the initiative I could get. Thoughts?
Re: Taking the initiative Carl
Could
it have been obvious to them that you were carrying a blade? If so,
that, and the fact that they could feel you were ready to fight like
mad may have been exactly what warded the guy off. Altough I wasn't
there for the exact details, I've seen my share of intimidators. These
are guys who, if they see that someone is soft and won't put up a
fight, will automatically attack them for the cowardly fun of it. I can
tell you that had you tried to talk nicely and plead with them, they
most likely would have attacked you. If the guy saw that you had a hand
in your pocket and full intent of fighting, then guess what? He saw
someone who could give him some real work- something he obviously is
avoiding since all he can think to do with his spare time is destroy
inanimate objects. No coward wants to deal with any real trouble, and
he was probably able to sense that from you. As crazy as this sounds,
pumping yourself full of adreneline and getting ready to kill but
having the self control to wait for the right moment if it were to come
sounds like the best thing you could have done. Think of it this way;
have you ever come across a growling dog that you just knew not to come
close to or touch because you knew you might get bloodied up? You
became such a dog to that guy for a few moments.
Re: Taking the initiative John Perkins
Thanks
Master Virgil for sharing your experience. I am sure Carl was right
about the slime ball feeling imminent death at your hand. I have had a
few situations where just the inner flame of adrenalin kept the hounds
at bay. If you were far less trained and a coward you very well may
have ended up explaining to the authorities how 3 dead guys were found
in the same car with you. Take care, Hope to see you soon at the cane
seminar on Nov.9. Your friend, John
Re: Taking the initiative Virgil
Thanks for the replies. I'll see you at the seminar Master John. I'm looking forward to it. I'll bring my bag of gear.
Re: Taking the initiative Ross Makoske
Having
the cool, intense demeanor of a preadator, not the loud, agressive
qualities in some people ahs kept me out of what may have escalated
into fights with two or three people a good number of times. This
demeanor kind of casts a shadow of doubt on to opponents.
I
have kind of a funny story of a non-serious encounter- in high scool,
an english teacher, in the beginning of the year, forcefully put his
arm on my shoulder while I was sitting in class. He was taking role,
and trying to think of my name. The first thing that popped into my
head was an encircling wrist trap. With a modified version, I stuck to
his arm and redirected it into my opposite hand, and proceeded to give
him a handshake and remind him my name. It was a fun moment.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
self defense knives Ross Makoske
I was wondering what the various EDCs are of the people out there. I carry a CRKT Crawford Casper folder (the big one).
Re: self defense knives Tony LoCasto
A great carry knife I have reciently purchased from Greber is the Applegate/Fairbairn Combat floder. (5786 black)
Re: self defense knives Virgil
When
I used to carry it was an Emerson CQC7 first production with the full
complement of screws. This knife could pry steel but the liners were
tight and it was deficient in ease of openning, as I discovered once.
Plus, the linerlock supposedly was subject to failure under duress.
However, I am still partial to this knife for sentimental reasons.
Currently, I am considering buying the above mentioned CRKT Crawford
Casper folder (you can't beat it for the price) or the Benchmade AFCK
Axis Lock BM806PD2 or, if my feelings don't change about carrying
knives, a can of pepper spray.
Re: self defense knives Michael Caccamo
I
carry the Benchmade Griptillian, it's a Mel Pardue design, its light,
smooth, and its cheaper then most of the Benchmade knives.
It
comes in two sizes and you can choose a thumb stud or a thumb hole to
open it. It has an axis lock with stainless steel supports on the
inside, reversible pocket clip, and it has the most secure grip I have
ever felt on any folding knife. The only downside is that you gotta
sharpen it up often if you use it as a utility knife. I love the @#$%
thing and it is KCD approved. It looks like an innocent utility knife,
but Master Perkins assured me that "this is all you need." Plus the
blade length is only 3.45 inches...not like some of the knives carried
by KCD members... ::wink wink::
Re: self defense knives Ross Makoske
The
Crawford Kasper folder is a good knife-my only complaint is that there
is a system to lock the linerlock so that it won't fail, but you have
to use your thumb to do it. Its also kind of heavy for its blade size.
Re: self defense knives Virgil
This
is a little off the topic of this thread but has anyone used the
Gunting knives made by Spyderco? It is a knife that opens on the
target. I saw a demo of it but wasn't impressed.
Re: self defense knives knife lover
Kershaw
has a Ken Onion "Chive Folder" that's 4.8" overall that opens fast as
lightning singlehanded. It's 420 High Carbon blade is only 2.5" long.
It has a belt clip and all but dissapears in your hand. I love it. If
you get a chance check out www.topsknives.com it's great. Strength and
Honor!
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Dropping power testing and nail hammering. JP
I
don't know if this will answer your question properly. Master Kang used
to nail ten penny nails into two by fours with his forehead. I have
banged heads with him a few times but was not stunned enough to go
unconscious. I have banged heads only once with Brian Dolan and saw
stars immediately. Does Brian use his head to nail? Seriously, you can
develop dropping force by using a slightly soft volley ball. You simply
place the ball against a tree or strong wall and practice sudden palm
pushes against it. You must not fall backward and you must not let the
ball roll sideways. You could practice this while challenging your
balance by standing on one foot and experimenting with different
positions. Some years ago my brother Danny and his friends were at a
Carnival where there was a power testing bag. His friends were able to
deliver from 400 to 700 pounds of force. Danny astounded the man who
ran the booth by delivering over 1200 pounds of force. My brothers
Kenny and Coy could punch harder than Danny. Danny practiced much more.
They were natural hitters. I have burst the bladder on the wave bags
easily with deep penetrating punches. I am not sure what all of this
means as far as dropping energy is concerned. You could practice with
the advanced KCD students and see how they absorb your stuff. I know
that anyone who does not absorb extremely well will not survive your
particular strikes Carl. I only need a little exposure to know what a
person can do as far as hitting power is concerned. Remember the human
body acts like no other objects. Where I have seen a man on more than
one occassion survive and fight after being shot a few times I have
also seen larger men succumb to a dropping strike to the torso. Also
remember what Brad Steiner has said to me, "There is no good counter to
a crushed windpipe". Good luck, JP
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Quick question about self defense knives...
Quick question about self defense knives... Mike Caccamo
Quick question...
For
Self Defense is a serrated blade more efficient then a straight edge?
Is there any difference? Up side or down side to one blade type or the
other? Tanto blade more effective? Half serrated? What about grip? Are
teeth preffered to rubber grips?
Just Curious,
Mike C
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... Dave Randel
John is the expert on this - so heres the quick of it
Straight direction of power
Something to stop your hand from hitting the blade if it should stop short
Double edge is better but illegal most places
Blade heavy
Solid is stronger and faster than folding but hard to conceal
Liner locks are a stronger folding style
Wider blade stays together longer
Must be long enough to reach the center of the body
Must have a grip that wont slip when it gets wet
Blade should not be shiny
The very tip should be round like the point of your finger, just the slightest so it wont break easy
Cheap enough to get rid of if you use it
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... Rob Green
Mr. Randel
Great
response! In 13 sentences, you said more than many 'experts' do with an
entire chapter. (Very zen-ish).I agree with every point - particularly
the last one.
Any L.E.O. has a few stories where a perpetrator
couldnt part with a 'favorite' weapon - and was convicted due to his
attachment to it.
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... Mike C
Hmmmm... Interesting...
Any specific knives recommended?
I am considering a few different knives of different types...
The Extra Large Voyager from Cold Steel... not sure of the blade type yet
The SOG ELite Pentagon folder, not sure which size 3.9 is legal, but the 5 inch has more reach...
The Mini Pentagon, but its double sided, not sure of the laws on that...
OR the Desperardo from Cold Steel...
Cheap
enough to get rid of? Thats... always good to remember. Heh, you can be
a really scary dude when u want to Dave... and I don't mean that in a
bad way...
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... Ross Makoske
For
a folder, I recommend something that doesn't have a secondary lock
system, such as many CKRT knive, and I think some Gerber knives. It
seems like one extra thing to do. If you can go to a cutlery store and
handle each one, it will definitely help you out a ton. The mini
pentagon and desperado are good choices, and the desperado's
surprisingly compact for a five inch blade (that cuts like a bigger
one). The voyager, to me, is just too big a folder for an EDC- its big
enough to be a sheath knife, but its not.
I've been cautious
about carrying my knife lately since I've heard a bunch of stories
about cops using legal knives as jurisdiction to cause people all kinds
of trouble (not using knives on people- getting them from people and
going on with "do you know that this is illegal?", "I'll have to
confiscate this", or "what were you planning to do with this?"). This
has happened to me before- not to badmouth cops, but there are some
that abuse their power.
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... JP
So
far so good. Most of you have good ideas on what makes a good carry
knife. The only thing that I don't like to say which is something some
of my more radical CQB buddies say is that the knife should be cheap
enough to throw away. This gives one the impression that there is
something wrong with the idea of self defense and that one would have
to go the route of a criminal. In many states it is illegal to carry
certain knives. For instance in Rhode Island the blade must be less
than three (3) inches long. In New Jersey you can only carry a knife if
you have a specific use for it which is lawful and can be documented.
There are more complications than these. You could find out some info
by contacting the State police of each state. Some municipalities also
have their own standards. New York city won't allow any serrations at
all. The blade should be less than 5 inches with a single edge and
cannot have a pocket clip. This is still subject to change. My info
seems to have to be updated weekly concerning NYC. In most
jurisdictions it is given to the police officer to use his discretion
as to the dangerous quality of a knife. My advice is this. If you
conduct yourself in a mannerly fashion and don't consort with bad
people most cops will not bother you. If you find yourself in a
dangerous situation and can't escape and feel that a knife will save
you then you must do what is neccessary to stay alive. A good sturdy
sharp single edge knife of almost any kind will work for self defense.
It is the wielding of the knife that will make the largest difference.
I have practiced with the Henkle's 8 inch chef knife and have found it
to be more wieldy than most. Of course it would not look good if it was
found on your person unless you were a chef traveling to work. I had a
leather sheath made for my chef knife just for fun. I sometimes
demonstrate to my knife fighting buddies how superior it is to most
carry knives. It was built for handling. I personally carry a 5 inch
sog folding pentagon type single edge blade which works for me. Some of
my master knife friends carry 3 inch hooked blades. Remember, in most
cases you will not have to duel with another knife fighter. If someone
wants to use a knife against you he will most probably not let you see
it until you are stabbed or cut. Using the underhand grip that seems to
be in vogue is suicide in a duel. You should have your steel out in
front of you. If you fancy yourself an assasin then almost any grip
will work against an unsuspecting victim. Do not fall for using an
underhand grip against a blade forward grip that only works in the
movies or against a drunk or mentally slow opponent. We can talk about
all sorts of angles of attack and grips. On the subject of grip
material. As a forensic expert on homicides I recommend a handle which
will not slip with blood on it or excessive sweat. Most hard sharp
checkered grips work well. Kraton will slip with blood. Stag with a
very craggy surface is not bad. I have personally tested grips dipped
in blood in the crime lab for research purposes for possible court
testimony. If your knife has a smooth handle you could improve the grip
with skate board tape. Remember, whatever you do to alter the handling
characteristics of your knife will be taken into consideration in court
in the case of an unfortunate situation. You don't want to be
characterized as a knife wielding thug who is looking for trouble. Yes
the sog or any of the serious knives made for self defense all look
nasty to the court. Many blades are small and portable and ,if needed,
can be handy. Sometimes I just think of the old adage that it is far
better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. You can complain all
you like about the situation of carrying a knife for self defense but
most likely it will fall on deaf ears. When I travel in hostile
territory I carry a cane. Actually I often must use a cane due to some
knee and ankle injuries which haunt me till today. A cane must be used
properly against a knife. There is an illusion that the cane's superior
reach will win the fight. There are some techniques for using a cane
effectively against a knife but most of the info out there will simply
get you killed. I hope that I have not caused undo confusion to you. I
know that this subject is filled with much opinion. On Nov. 9, 2003 you
can see the use of a cane against a knife for life and death situations
in our cane seminar. We will be holding a knife seminar this winter.
Good luck, JP
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Adrenaline Dump Greg Pearce
I
was recently visiting two different web sites (Lethalo.com and
Street-selfdefense.com)regarding street self-defense. Both sites
discussed something called an "adrenaline dump." One of the web cites
states "natural effect of real aggression causes what is called an
adrenaline dump. The effects can be devestating if we are not prepared
for it." How important is it to properly understand how to handle an
adrenaline dump in the face of a potential or real violent encounter?
Is preparing for an adrenaline dump a part of KCD training? Looking
forward to a response.
Greg Pearce
Modesto, CA
Re: Adrenaline Dump John Perkins
All
of KCD training is based on the premise that people who engage in
mortal combat will experience Adrenaline Dump. You will not escape the
psycho/physical changes that will instantly occur during serious
combat. Having a built in plan to deal with chaotic violence will help
you to use the supercharged power you get with the AD. I am an
adrenaline junkie. I don't get my kicks from jumping out of a plane,
but it is exhilarating. Mine used to come from combative danger.
Keeping your head during the chaos of the pre fight loud posturing and
deescalating a conflict even turns me on. If you are instantly attacked
without warning and have no time to second guess yourself and are not
knocked out you will fight explosively with KCD training. If you are
stalked and have some time to put together a strategy of escape you
will be more able to keep a clear head. Once a fast attack come your
way you will revert to your KCD training which uses the most natural
attack/defensive movements possible. If someone is trying to intimidate
you you will turn your fear into righteous indignation. How dare you
try to intimidate me or attack me will echo in your mind and you will
attack the attacker instantly. You may get loud first and bark back but
you will be well capable of biting. One difference is that your bite
will be more like a Grizzly than a dog. This is just a bit of psycho
focus material for you to use. Good luck, JP
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WW2 combatives
WW2 combatives Ross Makoske
I
was wondering about world war two combatives- the Fairbairn and
Applegate methods. I assumed that all of it was written down in Get
Tough and Kill or be Killed. But now that I've heard of these CQB
masters, I assume that there must be more to them. What else is
included in the systems besides whats in the books?
Re: WW2 combatives John Perkins
Basically
speaking, during WWII and since there have been quite a few former
military and other instructors who have taken the basics of Kill or Get
Killed and have worked out various methodologies that have remained
within the scope of the originators of CQB. One of the more well known
instructors is Charles Nelson who had been teaching in NYC until a few
years ago. There are some others who are named in ATTACK PROOF. I know
some of the better instructors of CQB personally. If you would like an
historical background you may contact Prof. Bradley Steiner and
purchase some of his written information about some of these experts,
most of which have performed admirably in the battlefields throughout
the world. Some of the highly skilled serious instructors that I know
would not like me to print their names on a forum. If anyone wants to
contact one of these men you could contact me directly at
attack@attackproof.com. In KCD much of the original CQB taught is used
for the basic striking methods. I also teach a course that is mostly
based of CQB which is called Close Combat Karate. This is my own
version of basic military CQB and includes hand to hand, knife, stick
and gun. The first section of ATTACK PROOF is based on CQB. I usually
teach some form of basic Close Combat Karate to my beginning students
so that they may have a viable method of self defense until they learn
the flowing, inner and external principles of KCD. KCD was developed
originally to defeat CQB and the traditional arts as well as the street
trained and prison trained fighters. I hope that this has not caused
too much confusion. Keep your eyes and mind open. JP
Re: WW2 combatives Big Tom
If
anyone out there wants to see some WW2 type combatives performed
scientifically you could go to www.gutterfighting.net. This is one
scary site. Mucho dangerous. I believe that one of the top guys has
worked with Master Perkins. You could get a great deal of info on the
WW2 stuff here. Just a thought.
Re: WW2 combatives JP
Thanks
for the info. The actual site is www.Gutterfighting.org. This site is
operated primarily by Carl Cestari. He is one of the most learned men
on WW2 CQB. He is like a real field scientist when it comes to research
and application. Much valid real world fighting methodology can be
learned from him. I know him personally. He is the Boogy Man to most
wanabee hand to hand schools. This includes most of the stuff from
foreign lands. I would post most of the modern methods and state
directly that they are not up to snuff. The reason I don't is that I
don't want to get bogged down with bulslhit. Most of what you can learn
from Mr. Cestari's site and writings and videos is solid, well thought
out and viable for real blood and guts combat. I will stick my neck out
and state that my main source of WW2 combative information comes
directly from Prof. Bradley Steiner. He wrote about 30 books on the
subject of serious killing. He is one of, if not, the most prolific
writers concerning real close combat. The most prolific gun writer
today is a poor sham. I will not mention his name but he knows who he
is. I will say that no one today in the military, law enforcement,
after market military, "official military" from any military specialty,
from any country, can match what these men will teach about Close
Quarters Battle. There is a direct link on our contacts page for
Combato(r) which is founded by Prof. Steiner. I want to thank my uncles
who first taught me the methods of Kill or Get Killed which put me on
the track of men who could teach real world close combat war fighting.
Once you read or watch what these men teach you will understand where
much of KCD came from and why I and the other master instructors teach
so intensely. Nothing out there today from the new wave of military or
law enforcement including most of those who are using older name
domestic or foreign styles of CQB is in their league. This stuff is not
only meant for short time training. You can practice this methodology
for many years and just get better. Most of my shooting methods are
based on what these men teach. My method of getting a person to perform
the same thing may be different but the end result is essentially the
same. This is the plain truth as I know it to be. Many of my serious
experienced friends and instructors also know this. Don't let the idea
that it is from WW2 and somehow not relevent today get you off track.
These men have kept this information alive and practical for today's
battlefields. Keep your eyes and minds open, JP
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Gun Disarms
Gun Disarms Ken
Does KCD gun disarms acknowledge the military drop and/or the fielf of fire?
Basically,
for those that don't understand the terminology, the military drop is
an acknowledment of the push/pull principle. If someone attempts to
disarm you, you immediately step/drop back. If the attacker is holding
your weapon, and you do this, the weapon will automatically point to
the attacker's centerline for an instant shutdown of the nervous system
once the weapon is fired. In that same vein, I was taught to never do
strikes or leverages during gun disarms that push the attacker
backwards (strikes above the solar plexus). The reason, according to my
previous training was that you would unintentionally create the dynamic
that I listed above. If the attacker has the presence of mind, he can
drop as soon as he realizes that he is being disarmed even if you've
struck him with an incapacitating strike.
Field of fire is the
acknowledgement that other innocent people may be in the vicinity of
the gun disarm and that would mean that you would be cognizant of all
angles the gun is pointing towards during the disarm in case the gun
went off.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Gun Disarms John Perkins
This
is one example of what I call he said she said. What I mean by this is
in most martial arts training a person will show a certain technique
and the other will come up with a proper counter to that technique. In
the application of gun or knife disarms danger is greater. There are
many schools of thought about how to deal with a person who is trying
to control you with a weapon. Most of the methods suffer from the
complication principle. The disarms are just too complicated and don't
take into consideration the extreme amount of variables involved with a
life and death situation. One of the variables considered in KCD is
just the one you mention called the military drop. Remember most people
will try to drop away and pull a gun or knife away a defender. This is
almost an unconscious movement. I have witnessed this a few times as a
police officer. Even the untrained will fall backward or fall to the
ground while a gun grab is taking place, especially if the grab is
faulty. You must also take into consideration that the assailant may
not be properly disabled by a blow. One of the worst things beside
trying to perform a complicated wrist twist or large Aikido flowing
step around is to strike with a pushing effect. If you know how to get
off line from various positions and can administer a blow or series of
blows to you gun/knife wielder you must strike deeply and quickly and
sometimes many times while keeping the weapon off line and insuring
that your opponent cannot get distance from you orpoint the gun back at
your body. Mostmartial arts schools teach for use against knife or gun
against the body. the majority of gun/knife wielders who are trying to
control you or use you as a hostage will hold onto you with their free
hand in some fashion or other. This includes holding around the neck in
a one arm choke type hold while the gun or knife are placed against
your head or throat. Most of the training in the dojos are for the
simplest type of presentation of the weapon against the victim. The
most common for practice is the gun or knife pointed at your heart or
solar plexus or to the front of your head. Unfortunately this is not
the most common method applied by the street, military, police, or
prison trained thug. The same applies to the gun or knife held to the
back of the head or back. The practice for these techniques is good to
do but most of the bad guys will hold with the other hand, as I said.
The military drop is easily applied against people who try to twist the
hand or wrist of the gun or knife holder. As far as the people around
you are concerned you must take into consideration that any technique
that you may apply to disarm an aggressor can fail and cause harm to
others. There are techniques that will minimize this risk but it is
still a risk. You are the only one who can make a decision to disarm or
not. You must receive a signal from the perpetrator that he is about to
kill you or others before you act. One of the main signals is if the
bad guy(s) are only interested in goods or money and don't act too
crazy give them what they want. If they start to try to bring you to a
new location you have a very good chance of being shot or stabbed when
at a new location. If you are involved in a home invasion then all bets
are off. You and your family are in grave danger. Here the best thing
is good prevention. Dogs, alarms, strong locks and all reasonable
security measures are neccessary to obviate the situation. It is far
more difficult to perform your disarms with your family around. Don't
forget that many bad guys travel in pairs or bunches. Here is where
extreme ability will maybe allow luck to go in your direction just a
little. I could write chapters on disarms alone. I suggest that you
attend my next weapons defense seminar which will be held this winter.
I will post the dates when it is a go. Enough for now. Good luck, JP
Re: Gun Disarms Ken
Hello
Master John, there are several people that I've informed of this site
who visit regularly. I confidently told them that I much prefer the
approach of KCD's hand to hand as well as edged(knives) and
impact(clubs,sticks) weapons training. The lone aspect that I hesitated
on was gun disarms. The knife disarms I was taught were entirely
unrealistic and could easily get someone killed. The impact training
was OK and even good at times, but not as effective as what I saw you
all doing. In fact, they think that they have counters to every
conceivable attack but when you introduce the variables from KCD, the
whole system practically breaks down.
As you know, I generally
disapprove of doing leverages in hand to hand or hand to weapon combat.
The lone aspect that I can deal with leverages is from a static
position such as during gun disarms. I was taught gun disarms from many
angles and positions, including the attacker holding me with his free
hand while being practically chest to chest and was also taught to
never strike during gun disarms. I was satisfied with the leverages
given because they never attacked the wrists but instead targeted the
elbow/s. These were extremely simple gross motor movements and probably
easier and more controlled than strikes. I prefer gun disarms that take
no more than 2 or 3 movements and don't involve any small motor
movements. Even though it takes quite a bit of practice, they gave
enough options that a skilled practitioner could probably consciously
control the field of fire. Also, we only did the military drop when
armed with a gun because falling down with a knife wouldn't serve the
same purpose as when you fall and have a projectile weapon such as a
gun. However, and to you alls credit I noticed that you all were
applying gun disarms from behind in much closer positions than what I
was shown in previous training. In the area of gun disarms, I guess
I'll definitely retain what I already know and combine it with the
knowledge I get from you all as well. Of course there were other things
that I decided to keep but for the most part it was overlapping
knowledge.
By the way, Dave Randel is coming to Chicago around
Christmas time. I spoke with him last night and I'm really looking
forward to his training. Maybe he and I can spend a small amount of
time trading knowledge on gun disarms. If the weapons seminar is after
the New Year, I'll do everything in my power to get there. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Gun Disarms JP
Don't
forget if an assailant has a knife and falls down while you are
fighting in an elevator or on a stairway landing he can still reach you
and may cut you in a bad place before you can react. I have seen the
result of this in one of our housing projects. The other time was in a
grocery store where there was very little room to maneuver between
aisles. Two men were attacked by one man with a knife during a sloppy
hold up attempt. One of the defenders was able to slam the knifer with
a can of soup on the head ahd face while his partner had the knifer by
the neck and the knifers arm from behind. The knifer was high on drugs
and drink. After being struck on the head he seemed to go ballistic and
fell backward slamming the guy holding him from behind into the
shelves. The knifer somehow got loose enough to fall downward and cut
the man in front of him squarely in the right femural artery. The
knifer then started flailing with his feet and knife. He cut the other
man on the lower leg and hand before the man could escape. The man who
was cut in the femural artery ran to the back of the store where he
died within a couple of minutes. The knifer had a fractured skull and
broken teeth etc. He was arrested later at gunpoint and even resisted
until subdued. I worked on the homicide scene personally and helped to
reconstruct it for court. Now these two defenders were not from a
martial arts background. The one who was able to grab the knifer from
behind had some military training and was a Vietnam vet who had seen
some real action. He also wrestled in High School. The other defender
was just trying to help the store owner out when the knifer pointed his
knife at him and backed him up and into the aisle. Had the defender
known how to control the knifer's arm with a leverage hold and allowed
the knifer to get closer to him to apply it he might have lived
provided that he applied it correctly. His large friend who grabbed the
knifer from the rear thought he knew what he was doing which was
effective and to his credit was brave and did manage to grab the
smaller knifer around the neck and pull the knifer's arm straight out
and rearward while holding the arm under his armpit and his hand curled
under gripping above the elbow. This was a great maneuver but the
knifer was oblivious to pain and didn't know how to properly cooperate.
This should have worked in the favor of the defenders but something
went wrong. Adrenaline combined with the pain killing effect of liquor
and PCP caused an otherwise great technique to fail. Had the first
defender just run to the back of the store along with his big friend
they may have found the metal mop bucket and long handled mop and used
them to good effect. But wooda, cooda, shooda, doesn't help much now.
The owner of the store had a gun but all was over before he got his
wits together and got it in play. Two men have guilt to this day and as
far as I know the knifer may be out on parole by now. ---Interesting
stuff eh?
Re: Gun Disarms Ken
Wow. Excellent story.
Looking forward to more of them. If that guy is out on parole, thats
truly terrible. Now that you've mentioned it, going to the floor with a
knife would definitely give you easy access to the femoral artery.
Thanks.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Gun Disarms Barry Reitman
Ken:
As
one of Master Perkins' more cerebral (translation: less talented)
students, let me tell you that you have a treat in store if you can
attend his gun disarm seminar. About a year ago he devoted a regular
Saturday morning session to the topic. As with all the other components
of KCD, it is stunning in its simplicity, and leaves you with that
"Duh, why didn't I think of this" feeling. And as with all of KCD, it
is based on practical and useful concepts, not a list of rote maneuvers.
As
for your meeting with Dave Randel, enjoy! He is a natural teacher, who
combines a full understanding of the art with the joy of bringing out
the best in his students. Too bad he's so ugly.
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striking mechanics
striking mechanics Ross Makoske
I'm
looking for some superficial mechanics answers, and the answers I have
received at this forum have been very in depth, scientific, and
unbiased. This is kind of an Ask Major Al question, but I'm not sure
what his status is.
The first I was wondering about was concerning
edge of the hand strikes- why is it, in Get Tough, that the palm up
(inward) chop was not utilized?
The second: I've been taught to
headbutt with the hairline at the center of the forehead, but I read an
article that this is a bad striking surface, because 1. there is
protrusions at the inner skull in the front and the back (and I assume
across the whole length, but anatomy books don't show this odd angle)
that accomodate the valley between the two halves of the brain, and
direct jostling with a hairline headbutt is very bad for this. 2. It is
common for the skin to break and bleed into the eyes, making ti
dificult to see. The article said that, therefore, the side of the head
is the better striking surface because even if it bled, it wouldn't get
in the eyes. The first issue seemed to me that, however, it would be
worse to hit the brain against the protrusion sideways, as there's no
groove for it. The blood thing didn't seem to be a real big issue, but
I haven't had any experience in headbutting a person. Also, wouldn't
the alignment of the spine be off if you hit with the side of the head?
I was inclined to disagree with the article, as John Perkins has done
so much research and had so much experience in the field of combat.
Question
Three: I've heard different people up in arms about the striking
surface when punching. The more traditional martial arts like karate,
tae kwon do, chang chuan, and other primarily "long range" martial arts
utilize the first two knuckles. Other martial arts, (wing chun,
bareknuckle boxing) utilize the bottom three knuckles. Some UFC
fighters teach to punch with the whole fist, to avoid damage to the
hand bones. I learned with the first two knuckles and then started
using the bottom three a little when I was going through iron hand
training. It seems to me that either works as long as the wrist is
aligned with the hand, but if yo grip a bar, the bottom three are
aligned with the wrist. Is there a superior fist position, or in what
circumstances is which better? Kempo teaches the use of both types I
believe, but I don't know why.
Re: striking mechanics John Perkins
To
answer your questions I first want to state that Major Ridenhour's
usually ready to answer questions on this forum and on the Ask Major Al
section. When he is not in town, so to speak, I usually take up some of
the slack. Since he is a Master in KCD and Close Combat Karate it would
be presumptuous for others to answer in his name. To answer your
mechanical questions. The palm upward edge of hand strike (looks like a
waiter serving a bowl of soup)presumably to the side of the neck does
not get much play in the book GET TOUGH. I don't know personally why it
is not covered. It is a valid strike but is more difficult to deliver
than the horizontal palm down edge of hand strike. It takes more
coordination to deliver properly. Usually when a person is in the
position to throw a palm upward edge of hand strike he is also in a
position to use the same hand as a cross over palm strike to the side
of the jaw or temple. It is easier to clear the shoulder and get more
weight into this strike. Now if you utilize the palm upward strike with
an angle or approx. 45 degrees to the side of the neck as you are
dropping forward into an opponent you will find this to be easier to
perform with authority and rapidity using the same hand for multi drop
striking. This is especially true where the other hand is somehow
ingaged in another task such as pushing down or pinning back a weapon
or attacker's hand while driving forward and assuming that the palm
down position is not available due to angle or other consideration.
Your
question about the use of the front head butt vs. the side of the head
head butt is puzzling. First of all the front ot the forehead at the so
called hairline is the strongest part of the head. You also have less
chance to have your brain slip in the cradle causing you to go
unconscious. Using the side of the forehead has some purpose as a sort
of slashing motion against an opponent's temple or jaw line or
maxillary hinge area, especially while engaged at chest to chest
distance and caught in a grapple while your hands or elbows are
otherwise engaged. As far as blood is concerned I feel that if a solid
head butt against an opponent's nose or side of or rear of head (not
against his hairline)when available is worth the risk of bleeding if it
will cause an immediate end of hostilities. When applied properly using
dropping force and hunching the shoulders forward into the strike the
head butt can cause a quick knock out. The sneakily applied head butt
such as the method used by some of my European friends like George the
Greek is a good preemptive strike when caught in very close quarters.
As far as punching is concerned both the two knuckle Karate punch and
the three knuckle strike of Wing Chun are valid for combat where
neccessary. The use of the full fist strike allows for more variation
and in most cases allows for a more advantageous application of
dropping force. The two knuckle punch usually is applied with an
attendant twist of the forearm which creates a great amount of punching
power for the apex of the punch applied also with the twist of the
pelvis and driving of the shoulder. This is good if you don't have the
dropping ability or are using it in a tournament where drop punching is
not allowed. The 3 knuckle punch is good as a punch to the head in
general. This is especially true if you are using the rapid circular
forward punch flurry while attempting to overwhelm your opponent's
hands while driving forward. In most cases I don't advocate using a
punch to the head when a palm heel strike or edge of hand or hammer
fist strike is available. This is because you can more easily insure a
stronger transfer of power against the opponent without causing damage
to your fist or wrist. Yes the fist has a bit more range than the palm
heel strike but when you are in a life and death struggle you want to
apply the most force in the least amount of time. Striking against the
body with a full fist more easily facilitates the use of dropping
force. The hook punch to targets such as the ribcage or the arm pit or
kidney or spine etc. is better done using the first 3 knuckles or flat
of the fist, especially while drop punching. The head and neck targets
are the most vulnerable and most often attacked. The use of body
strikes are secondary. Accessing the head/neck targets is paramount in
a split second fight. If the head or neck are not available the
secondary targets such as the groin, solar plexus, knees etc. usually
will be attacked with elbows knees or feet or flat fist drop punches
and side of hand or hammer fists. Don't forget one of the most
important striking areas; the eyes. Now this is another topic known as
eye gouging. Enough for now. Take care, JP
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Hello Sensitivity John F
I've
been in KCD for almost a year now and while I "understand" the
principles when explained by our great staff, I feel that I've been
slow to pick up on the application of the principles, especially during
contact flow.
During Monday night's class, I was in contact flow
with one of the black belts. Although we were moving at a speed that
was just slightly faster than that recommended, I couldn't believe what
was happening. Although,as a beginner, I'm accostomed to receiving more
than I give, he was landing palm strikes,etc one after the other on me,
seemingly without effort. But the scary thing about it was that I
wasn't even SEEING his hands before they landed on me.I now understand
why KCD is sometimes referred to as "Ghost Fist". Astounded, I asked
him "how are you doing that?" He said that because of sensitivity, he
knew what I was going to do even before I did it, and simply acted. For
me, it was kind of an "AHA! moment". I had read the book and learned
about it in class, but this was the most dramatic demonstration of
sensitivity that I have experienced. Too bad it wasn't MY sensitivity,
but I guess you can't have everything.
Re: Hello Sensitivity John Perkins
Sensitivity
is one of the more important elements in KCD. While the close combat
portion of our art is easy to grasp and perform in a short time.
Becoming sensitive to various changes in the attackers angle of attack,
balance, timing, speed and many other variables is the road, albeit for
some longer than others, to mastering the chaotic movement which is
part of most real blood and guts fights. The principles of balance,
looseness, evasion within a small space, and dropping power for maximum
striking power are the easiest to aquire. These alone will seriously
enhance most martial/close combat movements. You will even, over time,
become more graceful. Sensitivity, especially at high speed, will allow
what seems to be sixth sense type of movement against an opponent. I
and quite a few of my friends and students have found sensitivity to
work in real fights while pumped with adrenaline and all the attendant
psycho/physical stuff is going on. Yes it takes time to develop these
attributes. Many people spend much time practicing the simple kick,
punch, trip and throw techniques. They spend years learning and
perfecting them. Why not learn to develop sensitivity at the same time.
Most of the practice for the "simple" systems deals mostly with what I
call he said she said methodology. This is where one person attacks,
during practice, with a prescribed technique while the defender
counters with a particular answer to the question/technique. First of
all this is a recipe for disaster. As I have shown in thousands of
cases you cannot respond to a serious blinding fast attack with some
memorized technique in time. Get good at the principles and you will
respond to attacks with far greater speed and with something resembling
a life saving defense. The more ingrained your ability to perform the
main principles becomes the more sensitive or aware you will be to your
bodies place in space while dealing with gravity, centrifugal force and
many other variables. Sensitivity practice will enhance each of the
principles individually and as a whole. I hope this is not mysterious
sounding. It is merely neuronic training on a high level. Thanx for
your post. JP
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Hand to Hand and Shooting Klondike
I
would like to get some input from an expert on the use of a handgun for
self defense and just how one goes about dealing with someone who
attacks with their bare hands while I have a pistol and am trying to
secure same. How do I handle someone who may be far stronger and larger
than myself and keep him from taking my weapon. Does the fact that he
is trying to get my weapon allow me to shoot him in self defense? Thank
you for anything you can tell me. The Eskimo
Re: Hand to Hand and Shooting Major Al
Eskimo,
The
real expert here on bare hand to handguns is John Perkins, everything
that I know about going from a dead start to drawing a weapons "for
real" I learned from him, which is sad considering that I’ve been in
the Marine Corps for 16 years, and you would think they would know this
stuff but they don’t. Like with most law enforcement handgun courses
even in the service this stuff is taught as if the bad guys are never
going to charge at you with everything they’ve got, or that you will be
able to “struggle” over the gun like they do on TV. This is utter
nonsense that will get you killed.
The first thing is you have
to be able to move and use your hands to possibly fend off an attacker
while protecting your gun. This may mean striking to the throat, face
or neck while stepping off line with your non-shooting hand or back
away long enough to buy yourself time to draw your weapon. Even if he
is bigger and stronger as long as you remain illusive it should buy you
enough time to draw your weapon. Also as far as shooting in
self-defense only you can determine when it is appropriate to fire in
self-defense, not the police or anyone else. Remember when you’re the
one in the line of fire you have to do whatever you can to stay alive.
Another
technique is to immediately drop to the ground with your feet facing
your attacker on the opposite hip from your gun side. Next while on
your side and using your feet to fend off the attacker you are now able
to draw your weapon while keeping them off of you. Thus allowing you
access to your weapon.
However, doing these techniques obviously
takes practice and must be practiced under a competent instructor,
until they become a subconscious response.
Also, one must learn
to “point shoot” using their natural point of aim since in a real gun
battle at close range the sites are virtually useless given that they
not only narrow your field of vision but require too much time to
acquire your target, and that’s if the target is not moving. If the
attacker is moving at close range forget about it. Your gun sites are
totally useless. This is “fact” and something that is very hard for
many people to accept but has been proven countless times.
There
is a book called “Shooting to Live” written in the 1930’s by Lt. Col.
William Fairbairn with a forward in the book by legendary OSS
instructor and former ranking member of the International Combat
Martial Arts Federation, Col. Rex Applegate which lays out the
historical basis for the system that John Perkins has developed. The
book was reprinted in limited supply 1990 by the Marine Corps doctrinal
publications division as a historical document under the title “FMFRP
12-81 Shooting to Live.” John and I actually own copies of this rare
book, probably the last two in print because I haven’t seen it anywhere
else, which meticulously describes the differences between bogus “feel
good” shooting courses and a course of instruction designed to keep you
alive. Hopefully with enough interest sometime in the near future John
will put together another course.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Palm Heels vs. One and Two Joint Strikes Ken
I
understand that we accept the idea that a palm heel is superior to a
closed fist strike based on the fact that having an open hand allows
you more angles of attack and increased sensitivity. I also accept the
idea that a palm heel is superior to a conventional fist in combat.
However, I think a certain aspect of this should be tested. In past
training, I rarely if ever used my hands in positions besides one joint
strikes to the head and two joint strikes to the torso, so this is
somewhat ingrained in me, although I did use open palms for throat
shots.
Heres the test. Utilize a triangulated wrist, the way
that Matt's wrist is positioned in the book (very important). Ball up
your fist tightly, otherwise upon impact your fist is going to compress
to its maximum tightness before any power is able to be transferred,
just as the book says. While doing this be sure to stick out the first
joint from the knuckle of the middle finger enough that it sticks out
more than the flat surface of the fist. In other systems, I believe
this type of fist is called a dragon punch, I'm not sure, maybe I got
that from one of those crazy Kung Fu movies.LOL. Anyway, press this
joint against any part of your body, whether its your temple, jaw
hinge, neck, collar bone, ribs, whatever. For the two joint variation,
simply stick out the joint of the index finger as well as the middle
finger. For some odd reason, I always felt this added some extra
stability and seems to prevent even the slightest compression upon
impact, not sure why.
Next, press these same areas with a palm
heel. Feel the difference? In my experience, I felt a lot more pressure
and significantly faster from the one joint or two joint because its a
smaller surface area. Anyway, I think its a great option to add to ones
arsenal, by no means am I suggesting that it replace palm heels. I only
raised this issue because I've never heard it mentioned around here, be
it good or bad. Master Perkins, am I missing something?
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Palm Heels vs. One and Two Joint Strikes JP
The
se of the middle knuckle strikes is something that I learned and worked
with extensively during my days of Kung Fu training. I also used some
of this methodology during training in pressure point application.
During real adrenaline filled fights I have not been able to make this
type of strike work. I believe that the bad guys were unable to feel
the pressure points and when I tried a middle knuckle strike to my
opponents' heads or torso they probably didn't know that they were
supposed to feel it. I am able to break a one inch thick piece of pine
with my finger tips in mid air and able to use the dragon strike
against same. The mistake most people make in training is that they
believe that if something hurts when applied in the dojo it will hurt
in the street. This is wrong in most cases. A middle knuckle strike to
the eye will work and a half fist strike to the throat will work but
these are not so asily formed during a real fight. Your fingertip is
more likely to get into an eye during a fight. You may apply a throat
strike using your finger tips in a spearhand strike. It is faster and
easier. If you are relying on pain compliance to win a fight you can
loose pretty easily. I can easily perform many of the pressure point
methods but in a life and death situation they don't work. Try to apply
a pressure point to an enraged attacker who is bent on your destruction
and if you survive let me know how you did it. I guarantee that a well
placed palm heel strike to the head will serve you better. Ifyou are
sparring in the class room and strike your training buddy with a middle
knuckle strike to the ribs or solar plexus it will have an effect
because he is probably not under serious adrenaline. If you apply a
drop punch to the center line of your opponent and try to form the
middle knuckle strike you will not transfer enough power to shut down
your opponent. Yes if you want some penetration I suggest that you
apply the supported thumb strike. It is more stable and more natural to
form. I have use the middle knuckle position when I wished to make a
person move from one place to another when working as a body guard.
Pushing the middle knuckle against some areas of the body will get
someone's attention provided they are not expecting it and are not
under adrenaline. If the person moves and decides to escalate a drop
strike to the body or palm heel to the head usually stops further
aggression. Thanx for your post, JP
11/14/03 at 06:38:33
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Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill
Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill Ken
In the 2001 seminar, Major Al had an 8 pound sledgehammer. Is that the ideal weight for this drill? Thanks.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill John Perkins
The
battle axe boxstep can be started off with just a stick. You can build
up as you go along by adding larger, heavier sticks until you get to
the 8 pound sledgehammer. I have two very large circus mallets which
weight in excess of 12 pounds and have longer handles for the truly
mighty among us. I can't wield them any more due to a permanent injury
that I have. This step is also great to work with a claymore. If you
are interested in using a large sword this is one of the first steps
for developing balance and strength that I teach. After a while you can
make most big blades whistle in the air as they move at a blinding
speed. Another side benefit to this exercise is that your edge of hand
strike will have quite a bit more power along with your follow up chin
jab. Remember to start slowly and build up gradually to avoid injury.
This exercise is just plain fun and builds up tremendous stamina. I
know that most fights end in seconds but why not develop more stamina
than most people can using their aerobics. This is beyond aerobics.
This is one of those tiny life altering exercises. If you get to the
point of the circus mallets you may never come back to the civilized
world again.
Re: Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill Major Al
Ken,
As
John states you’ll want to started off with just a stick and then build
up as you go along by adding larger, heavier sticks until you get to
the 8-pound sledgehammer. When he first started me off on this exercise
I started literally with a broomstick, then moved on to believe it or
not, a tree branch that was about 6 feet long and 2” inches in
diameter. Even with the broom stick John emphasized not how fast I
could move with the stick but ensured that my “whole body” was
coordinated with the stick so that everything flowed as one.
This
is much more difficult than it sounds because you instantly begin to
see just how out of sync you are from your hands down to your feet.
This exercise, which I still do to this day, is critical to developing
the kind of body unity that allows you to strike with tremendous force
from any position while seeming to hardly move at all. From there I
progressed to a wheel barrel handle then finally the sledgehammer. I
would start off even with the broomstick, moving “excruciatingly slow”
and then work my way up to moving in a flowing graceful fluid manner.
Now,
at even higher levels in order to really bring my skills up, I was
given a “real axe” that was once owned by John’s father to work with.
The head on this axe was so sharp he had to actually pad it for me
“just in case.” Trust me if you saw this axe head you’d know that it
was a mistake you would only get to make once. I would then do the box
step and “flow” with this axe under his supervision as he pointed out
the salient points in order to help me develop not only greater
balance, but power in all of my strikes as I stepped. So no matter
where I stepped I was forced too be rooted along with having good body
unity in order to perform this exercise with the axe, thus the term
“battle axe box step.”
I was then instructed to step in various
directions while maintaining balance. As an extra “bonus” if you will,
I was then told to bring the axe higher with my elbows at least
shoulder height, and as I stepped I was to “lightly” touch the leaves
of this tree that I was working near with the axe head. The object was
to touch the leaves with this heavy axe head so lightly that I did not
disturb any of the other leaves on the same branch. Oh and by the way I
was to do this while moving my whole body in unison. Needless to say
that my shoulders almost exploded from this, while this sounds like it
takes long to do this the whole axe session only lasted about five
minutes.
You should at all times have a firm grip on the hammer
allowing your body to drive the motion of the object whatever you use.
As you flow you should feel this mostly in your legs, if your upper
body begins to get tired that means you are not using your whole body.
As John states and I can attest to it this is truly one of those “tiny
life-altering exercises.”
Good luck and enjoy.
11/19/03 at 11:14:02
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SCARS and ATTACKPROOF
SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Kevin
Hello.
I have begun investigating the Attackproof system. I would be very
interested in hearing from anyone who has trained in both systems to
compare and contrast them. I know very little about the Attackproof
system at present (I am waiting for the book to arrive and am planning
on ordering the new video tape when it becomes available),but have
trained in the SCARS system. Thanks for your help.
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF John Perkins
The
main thing that SCARS has in common with Attack Proof is jargon. They
like us and many others claim to be the last word in self defense. I
have worked with a number of students who have trained in the SCARS
system and have found them to be about as informed as most of the
higher level close combat practitioners. Much of the information I have
seen on some of the SCARS videos closely resembles Prof. Wally Jays
Small Circle Jiu Jitsu. Ki Chuan Do is very different from most of the
combatives systems in that, as you can read on this website, we don't
practice as if someone will attack in a prescribed manner. We know that
no one can know precisely what will transpire in a serious adrenaline
filled full tilt fight. Why train as if you have the ability to know
which hand, foot, knee, elbow, will be coming at you and from which
position and how fast, or even what the weather conditions are going to
be during a life and death attack. You can talk about the leverage
moves and deep striking techniques all you want but can you make them
happen at the most advantageous times and places with the worst
psychopathic attackers? The answer is with most of the others the best
you can do is have a chance to make your own chaos. With KCD you can
control most of the opponent's attacks and then strike back with the
most balanced, sensitive and powerful blows available today. The proof
is in the pudding. Talking about one technique versus anther is just
verbal masturbation. To obviate most arguments I have a standing
invitation to all who are sincerely interested. You can visit us at my
main class room at Premier Fitness or at the Hastings location. You can
wear protective gear and can try out some techniques with us. This must
be videotaped and you must sign a legal waiver against any physical or
mental damages. We don't allow viewing of these videos by the public so
you can get off all your best stuff and not get embarrassed if it
flops. If your stuff works then it is of benefit to us all. This is not
to be construed as a challenge to anyone. It is meant only for
educational purposes. KCD must be felt to be understood. Videos and
books can't approximate what your body goes through when a very
controlled internal drop strike is applied to your body. As someone
once said, "It's the most fun I can have just short of loosing
consciousness". KCD is far more compact and efficient when it comes to
delivering the most power to strikes or throws. It will enhance any
other martial/combat art. Basically if someone tries to use leverage
and deep penetrating strikes on a KCD adept most of their power is
absorbed and returned instantly. Most folks who are not versed in soft
internal absorption principles or cannot apply them instantaneously
will be dropped easily with KCD. Again you have to experience it first
hand. Take care, JP
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Ken
I'll add
some more specific facts. Please excuse my tone if I seem somewhat
harsh. On top of that, feel free to disagree with me if you feel I am
in error.
1.There are too many wasted and superficial moves in
SCARS. The leverages and arm strikes are complete silliness. If someone
allows you to do one of those ridiculous moves in a fight they had to
be incompetent or not serious about hurting you in the first place. If
someone were to stab you, they'd never present the slow, or even 3/4
speed cadence that you see in SCARS, they'll go all out with the same
type of offensiveness that SCARS tries to hold as unique to itself.
Some of the attacks that you see presented in the SCARS video are
unacceptable even if its geared towards beginners and I'm not talking
only about the speed, I'm speaking about the general mechanics and
distance. Speaking of which, something that isn't acknowledged in SCARS
is that in a homicidal attack, people under adrenaline move at
practically the same speed. The offensive mindset will only make you
move faster than a sport fighter or someone that isn't serious.
Freefighting is not real if you're not moving at the same speed, even
if your attacker doesn't let you know what weapons he'll use.
2.
SCARS is entirely too cooperative. What they have you doing by having
an attacker give you autokinematic reactions while you pound him with a
different set of strikes or leverages everytime is pointless because
thats the easy part of fighting. You should spend more time refining
your abilities to take an uncooperative attacker's balance and getting
into position to do so. I assure you that SCARS does not come close to
KCD in this regard. You may be able to strike and apply leverage to
someones arm that is moving at 75 to even 80% of their full speed.
However once you speed things up even a few more milliseconds those
techniques can and most likely will break down. IMO, SCARS puts
entirely too much emphasis on leveraging Aikido style movements. Before
you jump on me, let me say that I am aware that the mechanics of the
leverages used in SCARS are excellent, however this is pointless in a
homicidal attack because you're simply bogging yourself down if you
attempt those types of movements. Jerry Peterson almost admits it
himself. On the Advanced hand to hand tapes vol.5 at the end where hes
dealing with multi attackers, he basically demonstrates why you don't
go on the ground and also tells you to never to use leverages unless
they allow you to continue moving.
3.The sensitivity training in
SCARS is based solely on Autokinematics. Autokinematics will simply
fail against a well trained KCD practitioner because in KCD you're
training your body to be loose while simultaneously attacking. It takes
a structured body for SCARS strikes to even penetrate and create the
reaction. That pretty much undermines the whole system in my opinion.
When KCD is described as internal, its not meant to imply that they
stand there and take punches squarely because the Chi makes them
impervious to pain. Its considered internal because its focus is based
upon your sense of touch in the same sense that a well trained BJJ
fighter can grapple with someone while blindfolded as long as they have
some bodily contact, as opposed to the external systems that rely more
upon hand/eye coordination.
4.The only area, based on my
observations where SCARS may have an edge on KCD is gun disarms. Jerry
Peterson's rifle and gun disarms are simply excellent even though they
seem to have ignored some very common positions. However, the
simplicity and the control is superb and in my opinion, this alone was
worth my training in SCARS. Also, SCARS is very pretty and flowing in
comparison to KCD, which is not fancy or what you'd call "beautiful" by
any stretch of the imagination.
In many ways SCARS is ahead of
traditional martial arts and even most of the other "reality" fighting
systems. If you have the time and patience you can do a lot of tweaking
and get great results. From what I understand Tim Larkin is doing
something similar with TFT but Autokinematic drills will never make you
as efficient in combat as the uncooperative nature which KCD stresses
from the very beginning.
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Kevin
Thanks
for the replies John and Ken. I obviously dont know anything about
Attackproof and am looking forward to exploring it. But there are
several things that have been said which I would disagree with in terms
of my training experiences at SCARS (please understand I am not trying
to do this to advertise the system). By the end of Level 1 and
certainly through most of level 2 we pretty much ignored striking the
attacking limbs. At this point we were expected to deliver preemptive
strike at the beginning of their movement or any other signs of
threat(e.g. weapons brandishment)Certainly in fighting multiple
attackers it was foolish to let the attackers make the first move (I
always went on the offensive if at all possible)In weapon situations
even at level 1 we were instructed to attack the attacker as you
correctly said you dont want to wait and guess what the attacker is
doing.
The autokinematics is simply physics. If you strike
someone in the face the head goes back and the arms come up as part of
the reflex response. If they bring their arms up to protect it is still
the same effect, you open up the solar.
plexus, bladder etc. If they
slip the punch by pulling their head back it is still the same thing.
You always follow up strikes ready to use no matter where the attackers
body has moved. Besides remember the system isnt designed for fighting
KCD fighter's , MMA's etc. so I dont know how it would apply to someone
absorbing strikes with no body movement (if I understand you correctly)
I
agree with you on the leverages, I dont have much use for them other in
certain firearms disarms. I would rather strike than throw. We actually
did cover disarms of almost every type I could think of close, far,
being held close and far, kneeling, lying down etc but that was at
level 2 and in the counter car jacking course.
I would be
interested especially in what the main principles,"rules of thumb" or
key concepts etc that would define your system. It sounds like you have
very interesting system here and appreciate your time and effort in
educating me.
Take care.
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Ken
I
already know you're not advertising SCARS so no need to worry Kevin.
Remember, I went to a Level 1 camp and I've trained directly with
people who have attended a Level 2 camp. I really didn't know your
level of understanding or view on leverages and attacking limbs, which
is why I pointed out those flaws. Basically, what they did on those
tapes was a waste of time because as soon as you start training in
Close Combat or other WW2 philosophies, from day one as a beginner
you're shooting straight in to attack the body. I mention that to
simply support my point about wasted movement. It should not take a
Level 2 camp to get to a philosophy so simple.
In regard to the
Autokinematics, I think you're misunderstanding what is being said. Its
not that it doesn't work, what is being said is that you won't be able
to utilize it against a fighter who can absorb strikes and attack
simultaneously. You're definitely moving your body, its just that
you're not going to be moving away or in a circle as would occur during
an autokinematic reaction. You will be constantly taking the attacker's
space and jamming his limbs. Please note that this is not the same as
an aggressive jam in the sense that we were taught in SCARS. The saving
grace is what you said about SCARS not being designed to go against a
KCD fighter. However, KCD was designed to go against someone from a
SCARS or similar background. I think an instructor can handle the rest.
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Kevin
Ken
Its been a long day, I went to post a reply and somehow started a new topic. I must have dyslexic finger! Anyway take care
11/21/03 at 00:20:56
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF The management KCD
KCD
is based on what happens at the exact millisecond of contact or
pre-contact of an attack. I know that we are not actually dealing
consciously in milliseconds but all resultant motion during as chaotic
an event as a life and death struggle is what kills you or causes you
to kill the attacking force. In KCD I am not dealing with he said, she
said methodology which is the crux of most martial/combat methods. Your
mind and body can register and react in extremely short time durations.
To take out the gross reaction response to stimuli you must deal on a
causal level. This does not mean just getting in the first strike. This
means that you respond as empathically as possible. You must almost
become your attacker. If you practice the drills of KCD and can develop
your sensitivity and power concurrently you will be taken to a frame of
mind or actual state of reality which doesn't rely on memorized
reactions. You simply cannot pull from your hat a specific technique to
a real time sudden series of movements which make up the elements of a
real attack. Many people think that myself, Master Carron, Master
Barnett, Master Ridenhour and some of the upper level instructors are
reading the minds of the opponents. This is not so. We are reacting to
the minute signals that are actually given by the opponent which allows
some real time anticipation which allows us to place the proverbial
monkey wrench into the constructs, albeit extremely short lived, that
take place during close up martial conflict. Hence you can basically
stuff most of the BS that passes for self defense no matter how
pseudoscientifically it has been presented. Becoming one with your
opponent has been what many deeper internal arts have striven for. I
just took the old masters at their word and tried to work on that
principle and have created a method to achieve this in reality and in a
relatively short time period of training. Neurolotic training is where
we begin. The mind follows and then eclipses the original concepts to
make us seem like we are precogniscient. JP
12/04/03 at 05:27:41
xxxxxxx
fitness
fitness Oliver
Hello my name is Oliver, I study most of the WWII systems out there now after
being disappointed in JKD wich I did for a few years.What I wanted to ask was
what do you guys say about fitness in hand-to-hand?I mean a lot of guys out there
talk like you have to be in GREAT shape to defend yourself.But how about people
who are just not so athletic.Or, maybe guys who have a lot of strength but are
predisposed to overweight (like myself).Do you guys believe that to use KCD in
a real.allout fight you need to be in "excellent physical condition"?
Re: fitness John Perkins
I
am not in good physical shape myself. I do, however, believe that being
in the best physical condition that you can is important for longevity
and enjoyment of life. I have some serious physical ailments which make
it difficult to be slim. I can, however, make many of the most in shape
individuals loose their wind in a short time. This is due to relaxing
while sparring. I don't believe that sparring is a true measure of
capability but some folks believe that it is and I will occasionally
oblige them mostly to make one point or another. A real fight begins
when there is some form of contact. Jumping around and looking for an
opening like a kick boxer in a ring is not what a real determined
attacker will usually do. If you must deal with someone who wants to
attack in this manner just wait calmly and at the first sign of
movement toward you drop step into him and attack. The drop step allows
you not to overstep in case of feints and allows you to hit with
maximum power. If your adversary jumps backward away from you just back
up while keeping ready to drop step back at any time. Do not waste your
time jumping around and wasting energy. The average fight lasts about
from half a second to four seconds when one party knows and can apply
basic close combat principles. Anything else is the pre-fight. People
may circle you or move in and out at various times to try to "draw you
out". Don't fall for it. Keep calm and rely on your ability to drop
step and attack simultaneously. You don't have to be in good condition
to do this. In fact if you know how to use drop step tech. it allows
you to use your weight to your advantage. In KCD we do have many
strength and stamina exercises which will enhance your maximum output
for combat. These exercises will also greatly enhance your aerobic
capacity. We are now experimenting with Kettle Bell exercises to see if
it is all that it claims. I have personally fought with a Turk who was
in extremely good condition from training with the weighted shield and
sword training which is the most gruelling exercise I have ever seen.
He was like iron. He tried to kill me. He lost. I was lucky. I was
pliable. Strength and flexibility both physically and mentally are
attributes that work well in life in general and not only in combat.
The details of the Turk attack will be in one of the future books that
I plan to write some time. I sometimes tell the story during some
classes for the important information it shows. JP
12/10/03 at 06:00:02
xxxxxxx
Dropping strikes
Dropping strikes Kevin
I
just recieved the Essentials of KCD and the seminar tape. They have
lots of good info. I have a question on dropping strikes. I can see how
they would work. The system I currently train emphasis' stepping deep
into the target to bring body wt to the strike and to be prepared for
the opponent to be driven back by the strikes. In drop strikes is it ok
to step deep also or will that effect the dynamics of the drop strike.
Also should one expect a drop strike to drive the opponent back
substantially and should one be ready to close up the distance for the
next strike. Thanks
Kevin
Re: Dropping strikes Ken
Whats
up Kevin? I believe you just asked almost the exact same question I did
when I first started posting here. John Perkins will certainly be able
to answer your question in better detail but I've noticed that if you
strike someone with extreme speed,the force somehow seems to disperse
throughout the body in a completely different manner. If you strike
with slower force, at somewhat of a pushing speed the body will indeed
go back as predicted by our previous training. Of course this is under
ideal conditions, such as you getting proper angle of attack, him
providing structure for your attacks and a host of other things. With
penetrating speed, the entire situation changes and the target is
potentially "crushed" instead of driven away. Often times, if the
strike is unseen it will even cause the nervous system to shut down and
you'll witness the body simply collapse by falling backwards or the
knees will buckle and he'll fall straight down. If you continue
pushing, he will probably go back and may lose his balance but this is
no guarantee that he'll be unable to fight back. Of course the
possibility also exists that you hit with speed but no real weighted
force, in this case, the adrenaline raged attacker will probably not
even feel it. I think your question is an excellent one, but if you
simply flow with the attack, the question you've posted becomes a non
issue.. In regards to the penetration, which was a major concern of
mine when I first read Attack Proof, penetrating around 4 inches into
the tissue with dropping energy is advocated. There was a description
on how to practice this on this site somewhere but I can't find it.
Later
Sincerely,
Ken
Re: Dropping strikes Kevin
Thanks
for the reply Ken. Do you have any pearls for practicing this solo
since I currently have a lack of live bodies to train with. Are there
any particular ways or tips for practing on the bag. Are there any ways
you can tell if you are doing the strike in its best manner. Take care
and good to hear from you again.
Kevin
Re: Dropping strikes John Perkins
To
practice the drop strike solo you need a bag that has the ability to
absorb your hand or fist at least 4 inches but preferably 6 inches. You
could take out the stuffing from a basic Everlast heavy bag and repack
it with less padding making it softer. Or you could surround the
outside of a regular heavy bag with foam padding and covering the
padding with cloth. You next take a wobble board and place it at a
distance away from the bag which allows you to strike with full
extension of your striking arm penetrate up to 4 or 5 inches deep. The
board should allow you to stand in a left or right hand lead position.
While standing on the board you deliver your strike such as a palm heel
strike to the head or upper chest without loosing your balance. This
will automatically cause you to drop into the strike without falling
forward thus keeping you in line with the strike and on balance at the
same time. You could punch to the same targets or lower but remember to
wrap your wrist so as not to bend it until you get proficient with
punching in this manner. Next practice pushing the bag away from you
without causing it to spin and on it's return you stop it's travel
toward you and penetrate the bag deeply without leaning forward. You
punch or strike once per 10 seconds or longer. You must practice for
accuracy and balance. If you can keep your balance on the board while
delivering more and more powerful strikes you are on the way to
developing the basics of drop striking. The same can be done with
kicks. Later when we practice with each other we work slowly at first
allowing the partner to learn how to absorb strikes into the body while
almost simultaneously striking each other. The speed is gradually
increased until some time later under the guidance of advanced
instructors you move at almost full speed without damamging each other.
Most people don't know how to absorb full speed drop strikes and will
suffer the consequences if hit. Later you apply drop force to all your
repertoire of strikes to all sorts of targets. You will find soon that
the protective padded suits that many like to use for sparring will not
help against these internal drop strikes. The lack of sensitivity from
wearing such equipment makes it very difficult to absorb the strikes
without harm to the body. Forget about the joints or head altogether.
Maybe the giant head used by the model mugging crowd will keep one safe
but how many 2 foot wide heads do you get to strike in real life? Most
important is that I have found that it is advantageous to strike in
such a manner as to not allow the opponent to fall away but better to
crush the striking area and dropping the opponent in his tracks if
possible. Good luck, JP
12/12/03 at 18:11:13
xxxxxxxxxxx
pocketing on the ground
pocketing on the ground Steven Fagan
Hey folks,
I
think I have half a clue about fighting upright (hey, who's that
laughing?), but not sure about pocketing/yeilding on the ground. I've
seen Major Al's impressive break-dance/3-stooges impression from the
2001 tape which is good if you have enough distance/space and agility.
But if not, then I guess you're forced into pocketing/yeilding. I tried
to find my natural motion and it is mostly arching the target part of
my spine away like a snake with my back flat on the floor whilst my
hands/arms try to fend and borrow the energy - then flowing off that to
get my legs in their face. I have 2 questions: is this how it looks for
most folk (i guess everyone's application will differ); and is it a
good thing to be arching the spine this way on a regular basis (gets
pretty taxing when fueled by fear) - obviously applying the usual
warnings to start slow, stay within your abilities, consult your
doctor, etc. Thanks for a great system that gives me half a chance of
defending myself.
Steve, Australia.
Re: pocketing on the ground The Management KCD
The
idea of pocketing on the ground is not the concept that best conveys
what a KCD practitioner should do in a ground fighting scenario. First
of all what you saw on the 2001 video was just a tiny fraction of what
is needed to apply the ground fighting tech in KCD. One thing to
realize is that what was demonstrated was a basic fall and roll and
kick technique that is a prelude to training on the ground. That alone
will buy you time if there is no escape and you are attacked in a
multiple assault. If you are somehow brought to the ground during a
fight there are so many variables to attacking and defending that books
can be written on the subject and none of the information would require
you to grapple in the method of Jiu Jitsu or wrestling. Just the way
you fall while someone may be grabbing your ankles and driving foward
is different from what the BJJ folks understand. I don't have these
methods on video as of yet. They are taught in some smaller classes
that I teach to Law Enforcement specialists and Military specialists
along with my advanced students. Rudimentary ground fighting is taught
in general. As far as pocketing goes it is not as neccessary as if
fighting upright. You have the advantage of having more balance and all
four limbs free to attack and defend with while on the ground. The idea
of not resisting your attacker directly while on the ground is
important so that you can easily find his vulnerable target areas.You
would use the concepts found in contact flow when redirecting the hands
of the attacker if he is striking or attempting to grapple. As you fall
to the ground it is advisable to get your feet into action instantly.
You would bring one or more of your knees up toward your face so as to
thrust your leg out for some type of attack to your attacker's head or
throat and any other secondary target that presents itself. In case
your attacker finds himself attempting to grapple with your hands and
arms you apply all eye gouge techniques with the most supple hand and
arm sensitivity. Your power for any stronger strikes comes from
shifting your body weight in various ways which allows some form of
ground dropping which allows for more powerful strikes as well as
escapes from grapples. Remember during a fight for your life you must
be ruthless. I have had practice working with highly skilled BJJ
practitioners and have worked with them with some of the Valle Tudo
concepts. It was fast and furious but while they were attacking toward
my eyes and throat they were using high speed and strength with a
tension to their attacking limbs which allowe all the KCD soft
redirecting to work. Caution! I and the KCD masters and advanced
teachers are able to apply KCD during ferocious practice even against
persons who don't know KCD without causing serious harm to the
combatant/trainees. If you work with someone who is advanced in
grappling you must practice slowly the cepts of KCD. If your training
partner insists on going all out to beat you it is advisable to explain
that high speed eye gouges or toe pushes to the throat or heel kicks to
the spine or neck etc. are dangerous to practice with speed or
determination and could cause permanent injury and death. I know all
the BS arguments that come up such as moving the head so as not to
loose an eye and many others. I know the macho big muscle theories
about ground fighting. It is difficult to accept that being muscle
bound or having tremendous anaconda like ability can be defeated by
some simple attacks. People think that something like a dedicated
finger thrust into the eye which is plunged deep into the brain will
not work. In KCD we practice how to apply these methods of what we call
Mayhem Do seriously and have many training methods which are not known
by other martial arts to accomplish these things. A person who is
limited to strangling, grappling and striking while using muscular
resistance will be at a distinct disadvantage to someone who has
practice being looser and totally spontaneous to these attacks. We also
practice high speed strangles form all sorts of angles along with the
many other attacking methodologies from KCD. Simple resistance and
sudden release practice against a strength oriented practice partner is
a good way to begin some ground fighting. The ability to rotate your
wrist out of grips and suddenly flowing into the throat and eyes is one
basic practice method. If you know internal drop tech you can apply it
to the thrusting strikes to vulnerable areas of your attacker. Remember
dropping while on your back is possible. The slight arching and release
of your torso will give you some sudden strike ability. Loading the
spring as is described in the book can be practiced from the ground.
Tearing your attacker from your body with your feet is good practice.
While training various Marine Corp instructors in the pit, Major
Ridenhour was able to have three BJJ trained instructors attack at the
same time. The use of combat boots against these men was, to say the
least, devastating. The instructors quickly found that submission holds
and mounting the enemy is a bad joke. The Russian manual on fighting
deals with most Jiu Jitsu attacks and holds pretty directly. Most of
the pictures of our soldiers mounting or grappling with the Russian
specialists depict the partners of the Russians just slamming the edge
of a shovel through the head of our troops. We have some students who
have practiced fighting in Bosnia as well as Russia and all have found
that the application of ferocious tearing and striking methods are
practiced for ground fighting in these areas. I am sorry that we are
not allowed to tear out an opponents eyes or crush the trachea during
practice because short of that some of the more bone headed grapplers
just say that the touch to the eyes or thumb applied lightly to the
throat don't count. The fact that these methods actually work on the
battlefield is ignored because it doesn't fit their plan. The so called
street fighting BJJ methods are better than the sportive methods but
are not as efficient as KCD. In the near future we will video tape the
more basic practice methods for ground fighting. We will not include
much of the extreme stuff which we have been teaching to some select
professional soldiers and police but for the martial arts public these
methods will be eye opening. Pocketing is good practice for elusivness
and allows for some set ups that will not be expected by your opponent.
Sorry to be so long winded. The Management
12/15/03 at 05:26:52
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I felt many would benefit from the answer being posted here -- thank you.
Re: A question about rooting John Perkins
Your
question is a bit interesting. When practicing fundamental rooting
strikes I have found it advantageous to teach the same side root/strike
in the beginning simply because it is easier to understand and apply at
first. Rooting from or to the opposite leg from your striking hand is a
bit more difficult to learn. It is, however, just as important as the
same side delivery. Sometimes you will not be able to root on one side
or another because of the dynamics of a fight. you may find that while
initiating a drop strike from one side you suddenly need to shift your
balance to avoid a kick or evade a sweep. Here you instantly reroot
onto the opposite leg while still applying the strike with the initial
hand or elbow etc. Whenever you kick and simultaneouly root you always
use the opposite leg to root. I hope this answers your question. JP
12/17/03 at 03:04:27
xxxxxxxxxxxx
grabs in ki chuan do luciano debellis
I
just had a question regarding grabs in this art i have addressed this
question to both major al and to dave randel as well as some upper
level belts and i get different responses as well as advice and i was
searching for a definitive answer namely, are grabs a realistic
practical tool in this art? by this i dont mean a momentary grab to get
the opponent to tense up or to release and strike but a firm strong
hold to immoblize the opponents arm which i seem to get quite often ...
the 2 schools of thought that i have gotten so far on this are 1) dont
let them do that and 2) grabs are not practical or feasible at speed in
a realistic situation...so basically im asking in practice when moving
slowly and my training partner grabs me firmly with a very tight grip
how do i work around this ,if in fact , it is not a practical movement
? they can pull it off and use it at a slow speed but can it be done at
a realistic pace? i have been debating this question for a while and
would greatly appreciate a definitvie answer to it ,thank you for your
time
Re: grabs in ki chuan do The Management KCD
Thank you
for your question. The answer is this. If you are in a static situation
like standing in line waiting for your groceries to get checked out
someone could suddenly grab you if you are unaware. Here is where
dropping into the fright (fight) reaction comes into play. By suddenly
dropping and simultaneously raising your shoulders and elbows most
sudden Chin Na or Jiu Jitsu style grab attacks will be nullified or put
off course. You next rely on your sensitivity and looseness to return a
slamming strike combination into your attacker almost seamlessly
without apparent hesitation. As for the grabbing that goes on during
contact flow training I have this to say. If the practice is being done
by a very high level instructor or master, the main purpose is to allow
you to feel the intitation of a grabbing or grappling motion to a limb
or other body area. If your training partner is simply grabbing at high
speed while you are supposed to be moving at a slower pace then your
partner is full of ego and just trying to win at slow practice. This is
something that happens at the beginning stages of KCD practice. The
best thing to do is suddenly rip out his gonads or throat immediately
and call 911 JUST KIDDING!!!!!!! Obviously you will make it clear to
your partner that sudden speeding up is not helping either of you to
absorb the KCD principles properly. If the partner keeps up the wrong
action you simply excuse yourself and take a water break. Without
malice ask the instructor to work out the escape from the particular
grab along with your partner. Do not challenge your partner directly by
saying something like "hey your speeding up" because he or she will
most likely become psychologically defensive and all you will end up
doing is speeding up in turn to protect yourself and your ego. In KCD
there is no room for extended time playing ego games. Every minute you
or someone speeds up to gain unfair advantage during slow practice is
wasted effort and only reenforces incorrect reactions. Remember if a
person could attack you three times faster than a normal person then
that person would not even need to learn self defense. A person who is
3 or more times faster than human beings could be untouchable in a
fight. Just imagine how fast a person could run. In KCD we do use
certain types of grabs. Some, as you have mentioned, are for
postitional advantage while others are for crushing tissue like the
throat or other soft body parts for control. This type of control
method is for dealing with somewhat compliant prisoners in police work.
Of course a strong pinching action can sometimes help in a fight but
don't count on it. Grabbing and grappling are only supposed to be
practiced so as to teach the KCD practitioner what it feels like to be
attacked in this manner. This allows you to learn to flow around the
movement and simultaneously strike back. If you are a bouncer and
dealing with a non combative drunk then some of the Jiu Jitsu grabs and
twists may come in handy. For serious adrenaline blood baths grappling
or trying control by grabbing and twisting will usually get you hurt or
worse. This is where the Guided Chaos methodology comes in. Flow,
strike, and bounce your opponent at every turn. Generally if you know
what you are doing and are defensively ruthless a fight will last about
a half a second to four seconds in your favor. Good luck, JP
12/22/03 at 04:48:41
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art?
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? GP
It
seems that the hottest ticket in the martial arts world is Brazilian
Jiu-jitsu. Recently a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu school opened its doors in my
home town claiming to be the ultimate in close quarter, hand-to-hand
combat. During my conversation with the instructor, he informed me that
in 2002, the US Army Rangers Special Forces Unit declared Brazilian
Jiu-jitsu the choice for hand-to-hand combat trainig. He stated that
this mandate was put into place due to the effectiveness of Brazilian
Jiu-jitsu in life and death situations. Does anyone in the KCD
community have experience with Brazilian Jiu-jitsu? How effective is a
grappling art with regards to hand-to-hand combat? Is Brazilian
Jiu-jitsu a bonafide self-defense art?
Thanks
GP
Ken
01/27/04 at 02:32:54 IP: 64.12.96.42
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? John Perkins
We
at Attack Proof Inc. made a video tape titled KILL THE ENEMY. This tape
deals with the terrible hoax that has been played upon the military
establishment in the U.S. by proponents of BJJ. I am not blaming the
Gracies because I don't believe that they know any better. I think that
people who are not real close combat warriors can easily get confused
by hype. Many police officers in some cases believe that you can fight
like Chuck Norris in the street until they get dropped by a dose of
reality in the form of an ex prison monster who has learned the short
cut to taking out his enemy. It is the same with many of the military
folks. Because our military is well equipped with ammuntion for our
very handy rifles and with all of our airborne fire power the average
soldier never gets a chance to fight hand to hand (thank God).
Hypno
Jitsu has even reached the military because very few veterans of
serious close combat engagements without weapons exist. Major Al has
proven many times in Camp LeJeune to the BJJ instructors how dangerous
the BJJ is in close quarters battle. He has taken from one to three
instructors and students at a time and slammed them in the "pit". Yes
it is wise to learn what an enemy can do to you with grappling moves.
It is wiser still to learn how to kill the enemy instantly without
going to the ground if possible. Remember most soldiers in the field
have some sort of an edged weapon on them if nothing else. You can be
sliced and diced in a split second if you choose to tackle and try to
just choke out or worse yet try to mount or get an enemy combatant into
a submission hold who has no compunction to cut you up and kill you.
Our troops would be far better off and some have found this to be true
to work primarily with serious striking techniques which kill as
quickly as possible and work with some grappling secondarily. Yes I
know in the ring, as was stated by one of the Special Forces officers,
that one of the Gracies actually broke a man's arm. By that measurement
then some of my personal police officer friends must be really superior
who have broken far more than a man's arm in the street while being
savagely attacked by multiple armed assailants. If anyone wants to see
what happens to a man who goes to the ground with another while there
are other enemy combatants in the vicnity just rent MENACE 2 SOCIETY
and see what happens to the folks who go to the ground in the "Hood".
Yes there are some methods in WW2 combatives where you sneak up behind
an enemy sentry and choke him from behind but you must realise that
most of the sentry take outs were done using a blade or silenced gun.
Remember, the enemy is not locked in by any rules of the octagon he is
allowed to push his fingers deep into you brain through the eyes. He is
allowed to bite your throat. The enemy is allowed to cut your body to
pieces. His buddies are allowed to, as pictured in the Russian close
combat manual, split your skull with a shovel if you are grappling with
one of their buddies.
Submission type holds or mounting the
enemy is foolish. There are many serious techniques that will dispatch
an enemy combatant hand to hand which are far superior to BJJ. Yes I
know about Valle Tudo and all the macho grappling stuff. Remember, the
originator of WW2 style combatives was W.E. Fairbairn. He was the first
caucasian to obtain the rank of Master in Aiki Jiu Jitsu from Japan in
the early thirties. He was responsible for training peace keepers in
Shanghai China later in the thirties. Here he had to deal with men who
were members from many warring factions as well as brigands from all
over the globe and quite a few jiu jitsu and karate and kung fu
fighters who had real killing experience. He was involved in over 600
engagements and personally killed 115 enemy both armed and unarmed. He
was called upon along with others like him to develop the close combat
methods used in WW2 and subsequently in many other wars throughout the
world. These methods have worked for real in many thousands of
documented kills. Incidentally Aiki Jiu Jitsu is Jiu Jitsu used for
killing in war. It is not the sport type Jiu Jitsu you see today.
Fairbairn and the rest of the men who developed close quarters combat
were mostly grapplers who found that strikes were far more workable in
the battlefield than grapples. They found that using Atemi (softening
strikes) were needed before a grapple or throw could be utilized
effectively. They found that it was much more efficient to hit a man
and then just hit him again to dispatch him. If you can crush a man's
throat with a strike why get into trying to strangle him in the field
where there are so many options for the enemy to do ghastly mayhem to
you also.
I personally work with and have worked with BJJ
military instructors and have worked and still work with some UFC BJJ
trained fighters. So you know why they train with me? Because they have
seen the light. As I have stated many times before I invite any serious
instructor to visit me to work this out in person. All confidentiality
will be taken into consideration if desired. We can write up an
agreement with our lawyers, if you wish, not to tell or display the
results of our meeting if you desire. All demonstrations will be video
taped and personal injury releases will be signed for all of these
engagements for my personal legal protection. This is not a challenge
but an invitation to any serious and concerned teacher from the
military or the world at large to work any questions you may have. I
feel that if you are in charge of teaching men/women to survive a real
life brutal life and death hand to hand encounter you owe it to them to
know the facts and teach the facts. I personally worked with 3 SEALS
who were trained in BJJ and they lost in a matter of seconds. They
tried attacking me from various positions and lost badly each time. Yes
I know that it is unfair to pit a master against them but do you think
that a grappler would win against 3 SEALS in the field? These men
became true believers in real CQB. Yes again I will say, given certain
limited circumstances, BJJ will work against one man at a time provided
that the man is not versed in killing with edged weapons and has none
with him at the time and has no friends in the area to kick a grappling
attacker's head in. It is wise to learn what a grappling attack feels
like and it is wiser to learn how to Kill Your Enemy! I know that this
seems to be a rambling post. I only wish I could express the near
contempt I have for anyone who knowingly teaches bulljitsu to our
troops. I have no respect and just plain anger for this situation in
our military. Due to politics or just plain ignorance this has been
perpetrated on our fine, brave fighting men and women. I know that some
of the brass figure that close combat is of little use because
statistically it will happen very little and BJJ has some great PR
going for it. It has also been explained to me that any martial hand to
hand training is use mostly as a morale booster. This is a shame. I
know that this post along with my big mouth will probably cost me any
future military contracts. It has not, however, kept many individual
serious warriors from finding me or some of the masters of mayhem out
there. Check out Brad Steiner's Combato or look up Gutterfighting.net
for more information. Communicate with these men. Don't just look over
the web sites speak to them in person. Get Real. A murder attempt on
the street or in your home is just as dangerous as a battlefield
attack. That's it for now. Take care out there. JP
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Rob Green
Mr.
Perkins pretty much nailed that question to the ground and stole its
luch money. Since I am not a member of KCD, though I have seen some
from tapes and my friends; let me just add abit from the outside. All
Mr. Perkins said is true. BJJ does have a great amount of information
and usefull things for any UFC type competitor. Such competitions are
NOT real H2H combat though. Not the battlefield nor the street.
Grappling skill, though usefull at times; is not the 'big gun' that you
would want to rely on in 'the real'.
For all of the reasons sited above.
I
guess my specialty is the 'prison monster' metioned. These are the
creatures that most people might encounter in the street. When hunting,
they tend to move in teams or groups -- tend to be quite viscious,
armed and often are on drugs. While in prison, they exchange
information and practice their craft. Even when you might be confronted
by a single un-armed mugger that you can take down and begin to choke
out -- too late will you find out that he has a partner (who has been
wathching for the cops) and this is the guy with the weapon (in case
the actual mugger gets arrested suddenly, he will be unarmed -- so much
a lesser charge in a court of law).
One thing that Mr. Perkins
did not go into, and I can without concern for military contracts; is
the procedure by which an 'official' choice is made; in this case, BJJ
for the military. Over the years, there have been numerious martial
methods touted as 'approved, authorized, chosen' by different branches
of the military (or LEO Academys) for training to the members of that
group. Sometimes, when you peel away the paperwork; you will find that
(coincidentally?) somebody relatively high up in the decision making
process 'just so happens' to be a student of what becomes the chosen
art. After all, he is in the loop and can promote his particular agenda
to the brass where another, more effective art has no such voice in the
process.
Thats pretty bad. No real investigation done by guys who
have had to h2h it within a combat zone, only the particular view of an
opinion of the few that sails through the approval process without any
real testing. Dont get me wrong...BJJ is a valid martial art but it is
sport oriented - not survival in combat oriented. I would go so far as
to say you could put one of the best of the BJJ camp into the equipment
worn by the average Ranger (not even considering the specialized
equipment)and pit him against a fairly experienced fighter (not even a
combat h2h guy) and the results will be less than spectacular. Worse
yet, is when the descision making process runs through a chain of
command where there is NO martial art or h2h experience amongst the
members. Then you are faced with the 'researchers' who might make a
choice based on hype alone -- hearsay and guesswork -- after all, it is
the ULTIMATE Fighting Championship, isnt it? The ads all say so.
Think
I am exaggerating this? I assure you, there seems to be much more
research into what is included in any military units PX store than what
goes into deciding what to train the military in for effective h2h
skills to save a soldiers life in times of need. It seems insane, but I
stand by that last statement. One of the stupidest things ever done by
the military decision makers was to discard the old CQC of WW2 and
search for something better without success. Sorta like discarding the
K-Bar knife and replacing it with a butter knife. It goes past stupid
-- it is completely irresponsabile and very, very sad.
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Rob Green
When
you know how to put body alignment behind the cut, even the crappiest
knife can go to the bone in a cut. ALWAYS pissed me off that inmates in
the system have access to plastic knives in messhalls - I have
demonstrated to newer officers how efficiently these seemingly harmless
blades can cut a person very deeply. Then again, inmates tend not to
know how to do this...they prefer to make their own. Some of the
oldtimers know how to take the foil lining from the Newports that they
used to be able to buy - no smoking permitted in the facilities
anylonger - and by wrapping it tightly around a cigarette filter and
applying heat carefully from a match - now verbotten - they could
fashion a pretty decent 'poker'.
Grappling does have a place in
a well rounded m.art arsenal but it is not the first line of defense
and those that rely on it in a true open conflict learn this, often too
late.
I mentioned in another place about an inmate altercation
where a superior sized grappler managed to bearhug another and pin the
guys arms. The one held - BIT THE HOLDERS LOWER LIP CLEAN OFF HIS FACE!
Savage? Very...but quite effective and a good example of a sportive
technique meeting up with a real no-holds-barred response. The
'beasties' are out there, folks. It has been a failing in methods that
claim to teach self-defense to not even address thier existence, their
tactics and to learn how to respond to them.
In a real conflict, I
would rather face an opponent with a black belt from an average
commercial dojo than one with a years time of violence taught in
Elmira, Ossining or a 'busy house' on Rikers puni/seg unit.
There is an element of truth in the old joke: "Back off, I know K-rate"!
Oh yeah, well I know C-razy"!
And
these are just the underbelly of our own society. I daresay that the
religious/cultural fanatic that could be met on todays battlefield has
a hell of a lot more personal committment to destroying his enemy than
a mugger does -- all else held equal.
I sometimes wonder if LE
organizations and the military brass will ever smarten up -- until they
do, it falls on the individual. Since these individuals who serve
deserve the best for themselves and the society they protect - it is
outrageous that they dont get it. The private individual also deserves
this chance. (Now I am beginning to sound like Mr. Perkins here. He
says it more eloquently than I, so I will shut up...for now).
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Greg
Looking
forward to watching the Spymasters program on the Discovery Channel and
I can't help but think that things will accelerate significantly for
this system when it is aired. There are plenty of people in uniform who
are looking for the absolute real deal in hand-to-hand combat,
especially the elite ops and security types. Supposedly some of these
units have a budget to request guest instructors. The purpose of the
military and law enforcement is to defend the status quo - so you
innately have some people that are resistant to change (a University,
on the other hand, exists to generate new ideas and attracts its own
set of personalities). And a "big mouth" may upset some of the
higher-ups or those w/ vested interest but there are many who would
invest a lot of their own training time into something that they
thought was valuable - I'd bet that a good instructor who set up shop
in a military town might start out slow but eventually do very, very
well.
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? John Perkins
If
you are brought to the ground for one of many reasons and someone tries
to tie you up or mount you on the battlefield and haven't practiced how
to poke your fingers deeply into an opponent's eye sockets or learned
to crush a windpipe or rip into the groin or bite into exposed flesh
while you are wearing your battle gear in various levels, then you are
not practicing to live. This is only one basic use of down and dirty
real technique that a person could learn. You can fight in just a shirt
and pants with your boots or learn to use an empty rifle against an
ememy combatant before getting to a bare handed situation. Just going
to the ground and using some of the groundfighting methods of KCD will
keep you from most grappling while doing maximum damage to someone who
is trying to control, mount or choke you out. A person who has a weapon
and goes to the ground and tries the grappling moves with the knife
that I have seen on some videos and which have been demonstrated on me
personally will not have an advantage against a person who goes to the
ground and can knife fight from the ground position. There are a
multitude of maneuvers which can be applied using an edged weapon from
the ground position which will negate most grappling. If you practice
using magic markers on each other starting from the ground you will
find that you will get marked up a whole lot faster by the guy who is
intent on cutting like a fan blade gone loose than one who is
attempting to control you with some form of grappling while using a
knife. Of course if a person is performing a sentry take out from
behind and pulling back on the head of a victim while simultaneously
stabbing him and they fall to the ground then the attacker who has
performed a kind of grapple and stab will have an advantage. In all of
these matters you need to use some common sense and not stick to
something which is not to your advantage because of some attachment to
some form of fighting art or other. Remember you must practice without
cooperation as much as possible. Imagine what you would do to someone
who tried to take you to the ground and the life of a loved one also
hung in the balance. If you ever tried to grapple a psychotic maniac
bent on killing you who is moving a warp speed like a grounded trout
you will find that it is pretty much like trying to control an enemy
combatant bent on surviving whatever you throw at him. Yes if you are
an accomplished and/or professional ground fighter and you also learn
how to perform the most penetrating throat crushes and eye gouges as
well as strikes designed to kill you will truly be formidable but you
will find out quickly that the sportive methodology will not be used as
much as the killing techniques. There are a number of ground killing
techniques that KCD uses which are derived from native american and
other sources that hardly rely on grappling in the wrestling sense.
These methods use striking and kicking combinations which are
devastating and are clearly not allowed in UFC or other sportive
methods simply because they are lethal. The choke hold is lethal but it
can be applied somewhat safely in the ring. You cannot kick a man in
the throat safely for instance. Imagine a UFC fighter who knew how to
heel kick a person in the temple or back of the head or simply in the
eye socket. Do you think he would wait to grapple an enemy combatant
when he could simply put his light out far more efficiently? There are
a number of ways to practice many lethal moves with restraint. There
are some methods of practicing using some specialized gear to, for
instance, train in gouging the eyes deeply while your opponent is
trying an unlimited variety of grapples and take downs. I do not wish
to list these methods or equipment here. It would be far safer to just
visit and train a short time in person to experience how much of this
works. In the meantime, as I said before, just think what your attitude
and how unleashed your fighting would be against someone who wants to
ruthlessly take your life or that of a loved one. Imagine you are on an
airline with very little room to move. Imagine you are stuck bent over
or between the seats of an airliner where you have no room to move,
where you can't even twist around to get a superior position. This is
where real fighting begins. You could be between two parked cars and
fighting on ice after you have been punched and while you are wearing
heavy clothing. You may have fallen with your opponent but you are only
able to grab his legs. There is a universe of responses to most high
speed chaotic mind numbing attacks. Can you figure out what to do at
the right time in the right time to be effective? Be true to yourself
and question and then question again. Work with someone who has been in
the real stuff where blood flowed freely and hard men were at the work
of killing. I am not trying to sound scary I am just presenting some
ideas to make you think out there. I have been fortunate to have been
taught by men who did think freely and practiced and actually did the
real thing. I could write a book just on the real life and death
struggles I have witnessed, experienced, worked on as a crime scene
expert, and personally survived. None of it ever resembled a UFC or NHB
sportive event. Not even close. Again I am ranting. I hope not for
nothing. Good luck out there folks and keep alert. JP
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Major Al
I
figure now that my name was used I guess I'll jump into the fray. First
of all this is a great discussion and one worthy of an article for some
of the more prominent martial arts magazines down the line. I'm not
going to rehash what's already been said, I think everything that has
been said is all good and beneficial for everyone's knowledge. I also
agree with "the Wastrel"s last comments that,
"Deliberate ground
fighting is one optional strategy for NHB fighters, but I would not
recommend it as a viable tactic in an entirely uncontrolled environment
which may involve weapons, multiple attackers etc. In those situations,
being brought to the ground is a disaster, but once it occurs, few
people are as well-prepared to regain their feet as an experienced
ground fighter. Especially one that is armed."
It is true
that most people when they go to the ground are not well prepared to
regain their feet, however the reason for this is because, at least in
my experience, they're getting pulverized by their attacker(s), and not
due to a lack of grappling skill. Just my opinion.
When I was
recalled to active duty and I was down in Camp Lejeune I was able to
get a first hand view of the new "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program."
Some of you have heard me speak on this publicly so you know what I
think of the program, and one of the biggest criticism that I have is
that there is too much grappling involved as you progress through the
various levels of the system. And the only thing that our young
warriors have to look forward to from such sportive, non-warrior
training is a "body bag!"
I had the opportunity to work with
many instructors and I can tell you, if not for the fact that I have
enough control not to seriously injure them some of their families
might have ended up collecting on their $250,000 SGLI death gratuity
benefit (much to the chagrin of some of their wives, just kidding). In
one instance I had one guy "test" me by diving in hard and fast to take
my legs out. This was based on the familiar challenge of, "well what if
I come in really hard and fast?" I don't know why, maybe he just wasn't
as skilled as he should have been which is highly possible, but to make
a long story short he almost needed up with a cracked sternum. Which
proves several things, 1) if you attack me directly and of course let
me know you are going to do it ahead of time, and come in hard and
fast, I'm going to kick you "hard," "deep" and "fast," 2) in spite of
my best efforts and his near loss of consciousness, "Flack Jackets"
really do work, which explains why he didn't die, 3) because we have
more insurance in the military I can get away with kicking people in
the chest as hard as I can "with a combat boot on."
The problem
I've often found with the whole grappling argument is that people still
do not understand that grappling works "if they're not trying to kill
you." Several Ju Jitsu Masters that we have worked with have admitted
as much which is why they use "Atemi" strikes to take people out or as
in the case of the people they teach in law enforcement, to soften
people up so that they can control them.
I use to wrestle in
high school and I placed in several major tournaments and once even
beat one of the top wrestlers in the state of New York in a match. More
over I've been in numerous fights growing up and trust me, every
"Brother in the hood" that went to the ground could expect to get
stomped. And it never failed that someone's cousin would come out of
the wood work to jump in. With that said I think I have enough
knowledge even without KCD to know that grappling in real fight to the
death could be suicide.
While there is some truth to the
argument that most fights end up on the ground I question the high
figures as touted by many martial arts schools which emphasize
grappling skills, however, let's assume that 90% to 95% of fights as
the Gracie's have been quoted as saying do end up on the ground. What
proponents of this argument don't tell you, or can't tell you because
maybe they just don't know is what happens in the 5% to 10% of fights
that don't end up on the ground. Do you know why? It's because someone
gets killed! So the question is, how do you know if you're dealing with
the 90% to 95% of grapplers or the 5% to 10% percent of killers? The
answer is, you just don't, and that's the point!
In a real fight
to the death and especially for military personnel you have to assume
that people are trying to kill you. It's insane to believe otherwise.
If people want to study grappling arts I say more power to them, heck I
was at a high school wrestling match not long ago catching up with my
old coach Brian Tompkins, and I still think it's a great sport. I also
think that all of the grappling arts are great arts and you definitely
can't beat them for the cardiovascular workout. But understand, if you
go to the ground and the person you're fighting means to kill you, it
may be an exhibition you only get to perform one time. Choose wisely!
Major Al
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? weechey
Well,
here are my two cents. I've been fortunate to train a coupla times with
Mr. Perkins and Major Al, (sorry I haven't been by more...things are
crazy at work!) and these are the things that really impressed me about
them and their students, aside from a high level of skill. First, there
is a real sense of open mindedness among the KCD folks. They have been
extremely respectful to my own art, Tae Kwon Do, when I first
participated in their classes, and I have seen no disrespect towards
other arts in their words or actions. Second, these are highly
experienced and scientifically oriented fighters. Being open minded
also means being critical and analytical, and the posts that have been
put forth by them reflect a tremendous amount of real-life and
experimental evidence/experience. Third, I have yet to meet a KCD
person who is not a model of humility. As is often stated on the posts
I've read, you have to experience it to understand it. I do not come
from a KCD background, and yet Mr. Perkins and his students easily made
me feel at home in his classes. Lastly, and I am basing this on the
posts I've read so far, they have a really funny sense of humor. You
can tell by the way they describe combat situations. Major Al's latest
post is a real chuckler for me. (Flack jackets work - hehehehe).
Wastrel, I understand your need to make a point about BJJ, but it seems
to me that it's just one point, and it's not clear to me that the
others have really disagreed with you. Lighten up...you might miss the
forest for the trees :-)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Advice
Advice Joel Jordan
I
was just wandering what would be your advice in a situation where you
see an innocent person being viciously bashed by a gang. On one hand
you want to help the victom, but on the other hand they could turn on
you and then you become the victom. I find most people turn a blind eye.
Re: Advice Rob Green
Find
a phone...call the police. Although this might piss off the LEO herein
- tell the operator its a cop getting beaten up (an inner city method
to get overwhelming quick response).
Anything else depends on who
you are, any skills you may possess and weapons at your disposal. How
big is the group? Are they using weapons? Is it a neighborhood gang
(wearing colors) or a seemingly mixed group of 'friends? (The
difference being that a neighborhood gang will have many supporters in
the area that, although they are not part of the beating; might be more
than glad to help bash you over the head to show their 'respect' for
the gang.
The scenario described has far too many unmentioned
variables to answer with any form of exactness. The best thing is to
call the 'professionals.
Re: Advice Bronxcop
I'm LEO in the
inner city, most notably the Bronx, and my advice to you is call 911.
That is one and only thing you should do. Unless the person getting
pummelled is a loved one, calling 911 is the only option. Jumping in
will not help him out, and will only help you win a free trip to the
emegency room. Just get as good of a description as you can to the
operator. IN some cases, the person getting jumped on will not press
charges against those who jumped him. Mostly because they want to solve
it on the street, as drug dealers do sometimes. So, if you do get
involved, it will be for naught. Don't be a hero in this situation. AS
for saying a police officer getting beat up, my advice is not to say to
the operator that an officer is getting beat up. As Rob Green pointed
out, there is an overwhelming response, cops run themselves ragged, and
sometimes get into accidents trying to get to an officer in need. It is
not worth to jump in, nor is it worth it to say a cop is getting beat
up. As cold as it may sound, you don't know the person, nor the reason
he is getting beat up. Calling 911 is the best answer.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
John Perkins background
If
you wish to know my background it is quite simple. I worked in the
Forensic Lab in Yonkers New York from 1976 to 1991. My Primary function
was crime scene search along with various forensic crime laboratory
functions such as drug analysis serial number restoration, fingerprint
enhancement by various means. I am a Firearms expert with years of
training and experience at crime scenes in Yonkers and worked some
cases in New York City as an assistant to my mentors including some
photography work on the Jennifer Levin homicide and assisted Dr.
DeForrest at the famous KiKo case in Washington Heights. I have worked
on many homicide scenes alone and with Dr. Peter Pizzola currently
Deputy Director of the New York City Medical Examiner's office. I have
worked on crime scenes and consulted with Dr. Peter DeForrest who is
the head of Forensic Science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. I
have personally trained hundreds of police officers in crime scene
search. I personally worked and instructed ten interns at our
laboratory from John Jay College and have worked on thousands of blood
spatter experiments for Dr. DeForrest and Dr. Pizzola which was
published in the Journal of Forensic Science in 1983 and has become a
mainstay in the area of Blood Spatter dynamics. While directly involved
in developing the Yonkers P.D. forensic lab I was a student of Forensic
Science at John Jay College. I am also certified as a crime scene
photographer and was trained by the FBI at Camp Smith in New York. I
have testified often in Yonkers City Court and State Supreme Court in
Westchester County. I presently work as the Forensic Science consultant
and firearms and self defense trainer for the Brosnan Group which is a
highly respected investigatory and protection agency in New York City
which employs former FBI, Secret Service and NYPD detectives. I retired
as a Detective from the Yonkers P.D. in 1991.
Most of my
military data I received from my uncles who were in WW2 and information
from Charles Nelson and Col. Rex Applegate. In reference to choke holds
used in LAPD as the only verifiable kills by bare hands I think that
you have not availed yourself of the military files of Col. Rex
Applegate. Quite a few folks have met their makers from men who used
the close combat methods used by our military and also used in other
countries. Most of what I teach is designed for police officers and the
military. The use of much of KCD is also good for citizens. Getting
someone into the mounted position is quite difficult for most women or
older and weaker men. Why try to mount someone when you can use a
weapon if you are old or weak. We all are going to age sometime. I
remember when the Gracies challenged Judo Gene LaBelle to a match.
Gene's answer was I will fight your father who is my age. Get it? Many
civilians are attacked daily by armed assailants. That is why I have so
much emphasis on weapons training. Remember the add for Boker knives?
The add showed the picture of one of their knives in the center of the
page. The caption went, "Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Kung Fu right in your back
pocket". When you are older and weaker a good blade goes a long way in
your self defense let alone a handgun. I was completely taken by
surprise also when I saw the picture of an army ranger who was mounted
on a russian soldier getting his head split with a shovel. This is the
1989 edition of the russian special forces manual. It would seem that
they were psychic. It does make one see some weakness in the mounted
position on the battlefield though. Getting to your sidearm is quite
important and does require some hand to hand knowledge. Knowing how to
shoot against multiple assailants is also an important part of self
protection. I don't just teach barehanded self defense. Much of my
teaching includes weapons training because quite a few folks do depend
on firearms to protect themselves we all can't be Tarzan and ground
fight attackers into submission. Again, the training for police
officers such as fighting against armed assailants on a stairway, for
instance, is just as important for civilians. You don't get to choose
where or when or what the weather will be when a criminal attacks you.
Since when do soldiers today have unarmed fights today? Do you remember
Somalia, Beruit, and some other places where the enemy has been
fighting us. Some soldiers swear by the old methods of H2H that they
were forced to use. Native american in origin? I can only say that my
father, uncles and grandfather claimed Cherokee blood. The formidable
fighting methods that they taught me were, according to them, from
Cherokee and West Virginia hill traditions. They at least were of
american indian background. If they lied to me about the origin of
their fighting abilities what can I say. They were my elders and could
kick some serious butt. Even Master Ik Jo Kang recognized my father's
abilities when he worked with him in the dojo. The methodology used in
the fight scenes in The Last of the Mohicans was supposed to originate
from some of the Native americans that I met and trained with. They
stated that what my father showed me was as real as it gets. Maybe they
were lying also. You skipped a question about where the Gracie
competitor used an eye poke illegally to get him out of a tight spot
against a big Dutch Jiu Jitsu man. This is on video. Gracie was not
penalized for this. It worked well. I hope this helps you in some
fashion. JP
02/03/04 at 01:45:38
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
groundfighting
The
practice of not going to the ground if you can help it is important to
the armed LEO as well as the armed military member. One of the first
things drilled into an LEO is don't let them get you down because if
they get your weapon you and others may be killed. This takes the
normal fighting situation and magnifies it to a level of extreme
danger. This is why when attacked the LEO must consider it a life and
death struggle at all times. You never really know the intentions of an
attacker. You can't rely on his good will and assume that he is just
going to rough you up a bit and not try to take your gun if you are
unconscious or just plain stab you once he has the chance. This is why
LEOs state that they don't want to go to the ground. If you are
properly armed and an attacker(s) attempts to take you down and even
attempts to choke you or go for your gun you must take out your backup
weapon and apply it instantly. The idea of wrestling around with
someone while you are alone or without fellow officers to back you is
insane. This does not, however, preclude the practice of learning
grappling from many sources. In KCD we practice escapes from as many
types of attacks as can be brought to our classes from many sources.
This includes practice with shoot fighting, BJJ, UFC, Greco-Roman and
College wrestling, just about every conceivable armed and unarmed form
of martial art. This is why we welcome the trading of techniques and
methodology from as many instructors as possible. We have, over the
years, developed a link with many masters of martial arts. Dealing with
the armed or unarmed psycho who is attacking with no thought about his
own safety is the number one priority in KCD because in most cases a
person who would attack an armed uniformed officer has to have a deadly
agenda or a serious screw loose. The sheer chaos of a fight in the
normal kitchen of a whacked out man during a simple family dispute can
turn into a serious injury or death for an improperly trained LEO. Even
at best anything can and usually will go wrong at the scene of a
criminal attack. Do you allow someone to take you out because you are
not prepared to go the limit? A choke from behind can be released from
various postitions given the right circumstances. One of the best ways
to accomplish this, however, is to take out your knife, assuming that
you are unable to get to your primary weapon, and cut whatever is
holding onto you. You could also practice getting real fast at bringing
your backup handgun into play. Yes we teach how to get out of attacks
using only bare handed methods. We practice how not to get there in the
first place by as many bare handed means as possible. We utilize the
most effective methods as we can find. We do not teach to play by
rules. Most LEOs that I know personally know about attackers going for
your legs or neck and taking you down or out alone or with their nasty
friends. We focus on the most fight stopping methods that we can find.
We have had practice with all sorts of attacks and attackers in the
classroom. Many of us have had real bloody experience also. The
eclectic approach is foremost in our teaching. This is why we accept
anyone who wishes to exchange knowledge. An LEO may face life
threatening challenges a couple of times or many times in his/her
particular career. The same goes for military personnell. It is very
important to practice the methods of as many types of attackers as
possible but time constraints can impede much of this for most folks.
Most LEOs and Military don't have the energy during a tour of duty to
fight it out mano a mano. They cannot afford to take chances. Learning
to deal barehanded with an attacker takes on a different meaning. Yes
we do practice some of the various mounts and counters to see how they
work. We also practice whatever it takes to go home at the end of our
shift. One thing we do know for certain is that anyone at anytime can
kill anyone else if he is determined and has a bit of luck in his/her
favor. You can jump through hoops and walk the tightrope and sail on
the trapeze but the smallest gun or sharpest knife or properly applied
choke or eye gouge or neck break can end all your aspirations in a
split second. You should train for the worst and gear down, if
possible, when it is called for. I hope that this clears up some of
your thoughts. JP
02/09/04
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